Paradigm Thinking on EBJ vs TBJT

Charles Darwin published a famous book, entitled, On the Origin of Species by Means of Natural Selection (1859) . It was based upon his observation of specialization of the finch population in the Galapagos Islands. It was a remarkable book written by a man who possessed a keen sense of observation. While Darwin discussed the survival of the fittest, among other things, from that book other scientists postulated the current “theory of evolution” which is nothing more than conjecture based upon the work of Darwin himself. Others have continued to expand upon Darwin’s observations until today evolution is taught/presented in the American public school systems as a fact – not the theory that it was originally formulated.

In reality, however, in today’s post-modern world is that the term “evolution” has been contorted, skewed and twisted into its current bastardization of what Darwin had originally put forth. Evolution is first and foremost a theory, and a bad one at that. There are so many holes in the modern theory of evolution that one can drive a semi-trailer through it. Nevertheless anyone who points out the obvious discrepancies in the theory is considered a heretic and dismissed as a crack pot.

The brightest minds in the scientific community have countered the Darwinian camp with the theory of intelligent design in which there is a higher power behind the scientific observations that have been made. The “older” and more “traditional” names pooh-pooh intelligent design as “voodoo” science and adhere to their dogma as they continue to ignore the recent evidence and evidence-based science.

How does this relate to TBJ one might ask? Simple. For years TBJ was done in a very similar manner with minor variations in the rules. The grandfather of TBJ play, Stanford Wong, published his TBJ manual that was cutting edge and provided many a TBJ player with guidelines and rules in which many people became very successful tournament players. Due to the advent of strategy, probability and skill the “legends of BJ” were born.

Since that time there has been a dearth of published materials concerning TBJ (to the best of my knowledge). In fact TBJ is played in much the same manner for the past 20 years. During that time there have been other names/authors in the field of blackjack, Arnold Snyder comes to my mind, that have furthered looked at BJ from various “angles”. It was A. Snyder who was first to publish very interesting results that minor variations in the number of cards being dealt had upon single player versus the house. When they were first released, his cutting edge findings about penetration were initially looked upon with scorn and skepticism. Today, however, it is taken for granted that the deeper the penetration the greater the benefit to the AP.

Again I apologize to any reader to whom I am loosing with my analogies; however it is my hypothesis that with the introduction of EBJ that a paradigm change is currently taking place in the world of BJT. As with any ground breaking changes people are reluctant to embrace the changes because it is unfamiliar territory. It is human nature to dismiss what we do not fully understand or comprehend and it is my humble opinion that this is currently the state of affairs with regard to EBJ.

There are many areas that are open to discussion with EBJ: skill versus luck; the introduction of additional variance, secret bets, DD cards up versus down, secret actions, maximum and minimum betting amounts, etc. Each of these topics could be discussed at great length and in detail – both as stand alone entities and as it relates/inter-relates in the game of EBJ. There are many extremely intelligent mathematically inclined BJ players who firmly believe that BJ came be beat using probability and statistics. I appreciate their great work and the willingness to share with less mathematically inclined players such as myself. However, I feel that a MAJOR factor of EBJ has been totally ignored or at worst classified and dismissed simply as variance. That factor is the psychological analysis of your opponents and using this psychological profile when placing bets and using all of the available tools that are prevalent in EBJ.

“Old-fashioned” BJT players will adhere to the game plan, advocated by Wong, of utilizing minimal bets until forced to make a move with the sole purpose of allowing the other players to beat themselves. It was basically a game of self-destruction and attrition in which the most disciplined players usually had the advantage as they were greatly versed in betting and playing the final 3-5 hands. In fact in Wong book over 50% of the BJT section is reversed for betting and play on the final hand. Therefore this leads me to believe that to the old-fashioned TBJ player, skill was defined as simply limping along until one was able to reach that section and to make the appropriate plays. Anything that varied from their old-fashioned tourneys was simply dismissed as increasing variance and subtracting from the game. The introduction of ANYTHING to that pattern of TBJ was referred to making it a “carnival game”

My hypothesis is that with the introduction of pre-determined elimination hands (EH), secret bets, face down DD cards and secret actions, that these introduced variance factors can be utilized in both positive and negative methods in order to neutralize the “skill” of the old-time TBJ players. Why? These new tools require a paradigm shift in ones playing skills and favors those players who are best able to adapt. Those who cannot see these advantages or misplay and misuse the tools are more adept to dismiss their value and therefore refuse to play a game in which their “advantage” is diminished. While that is a personal choice that I respect I feel that unsubstantiated derogatory comments about EBJ hurts the overall game of TBJ.

These detractors of EBJ claim that the “new rules” favor less skilled players, when in fact these less skilled players are actually playing at a higher level and in essence become more familiar with multi-tasking. In essence it is my hypothesis that newer players who study and learn the nuances and idiosyncrasies of EBJ can and should become more skilled players in the long run.

Alas, I have only my personal theories and observations to support my claims – at this time. I am in the process of documenting my personal results and am attempting to formulate a simple easy to use system that would give the edge to players who are willing to embrace the nuances of the game. Is this a futile effort of a crazed mad man? Am I like the prophet John crying in the wilderness – a man ahead of my time being dismissed by the establishment or have I simply fallen into a delusion mind trap?

 

OLD-FASHIONED??? - Give me a break

I object to the term OLD-FASHIONED when referring to tournaments played in the manner in virtually all casinos that hold tournaments. EBJ is a novelty, a deviation from the norm if you will, something for TV entertainment and to make the promoters a bunch of money. The correct term for the way BJ Tournaments are normally held in casinos is CONVENTIONAL. The term "old-fashioned" generally refers to something that is not used any more. This is not the case with "conventional" tournaments since, like I said earlier, they are played in virtually all casinos that hold tournaments. And they will be around long after the novelty of EBJ wears off.

 

conventional

agreed, "traditional" or "conventional" tournaments may be a better term than "old-fashioned" -- however, to simply label EBJ as a "novelty" or a tactic simply to "make the promoters a bunch of money" smacks of the very same ignorance. In a very short time, the UBT has legitimized -- and standardized -- an entire disparate game playing community. I can only surmise that you haven't played many EBJ tournaments...try it out, you just might like it.

-hd.

 

Response

"While Darwin discussed the survival of the fittest, among other things, from that book other scientists postulated the current “theory of evolution” which is nothing more than conjecture based upon the work of Darwin himself. Others have continued to expand upon Darwin’s observations until today evolution is taught/presented in the American public school systems as a fact – not the theory that it was originally formulated."

Which Theory of Evolution? There are several. The Modern Synthetic, perhaps?

"...secret bets, DD cards up versus down, secret actions,..."
"That factor is the psychological analysis of your opponents and using this psychological profile when placing bets and using all of the available tools that are prevalent in EBJ."

You mean "GUESSING", don't you??

There really is no debate here - EBJ increases the impact of luck/variance - and reduces the flow of information to the player - resulting in players making less informed decisions - EBJ is more of a luck-dependent game than regular tournament BJ - and regular tournament BJ already has a major luck component -

it is a designed for TV - give us something to franchise - made up game - and is right in the tradition of the carnival game compnents casinos seem to like to put into ther BJ tournaments - from mulligans to power chips to 3-1 pay offs for suited blackjacks -

casinos don't really want BJ tournaments to be games of skill - as they are not profit centers for the casinos - they are promotions to entice in new customers and comps for high rollers - so the casinos want everyone to have a chance to win - and that means coming up with gimmicks to keep the skilled players from dominating - which is what they do - and what EBJ does - more luck - less skill - the casinos and tv will love it -

that doesn't mean that the skill compionent is totally missing - it is just reduced - a skilled player will still have some kind of edge - and will adapt play to fit the gimmicks and will become better guessers - but still - the game is set up to help the unskilled - not the skilled -

if you enjoy playing these games - great - I'll enter the on-line freerolls - and if I win one - I'll show up at the final table and collect some money - but I wouldn't pay $2,700 to enter one of these tourneys any more than I would pay $2,700 to enter a craps tournament -

 

Two points

We were talking about this a little bit this weekend. Two of the points that came up were this:

In a UBT format, with all of the elimination hands, it definitely allows more opportunity to utilize skillful play. It's not a minimum bet thing for 20 hands. You constantly have to focus on your play and this is to the advantage of a skilled player. A player who knows what they are doing will have many more opportunities to make optimal plays over their possibly lesser-skilled counterparts because of the amount of elimination hands.

However the trade off is, right from the get go, your odds of being around for the final hand are greatly reduced regardless of caliber of play.

So you're looking at a game that requires more skilled play, more often, but has a big trade off...the only real question for me being how big is that actual trade off? I think it evens out while at the same time providing a game that constantly challenges it's players.

 

My limited posting on EBJ

Ken, you are correct again in-that I have never played an EBJ format game. It simply does not interest me. As the song goes: Different Strokes for Different Folks.

As anyone who follows this forum will conclude, I generally stay clear of any EBJ discussions. Again, I just have no interest. If others do, that's fine. I made my decision and anyone else is naturally entitled to theirs. My only reason for entering this thread was to voice my very strong objection to using the term "old-fashioned". I did that and now I'm done - at least for a while that is.

I sincerely wish everyone on this forum playing EBJ all the luck in the world. I for one will follow how events unfold over the next few years and if EBJ does indeed survive over the long haul, all the better for Blackjack Tournaments in general. So let's get on with tournament discussions given that CONVENTIONAL BJ tournaments are not going the way of the dinosaur anytime soon.

 

Wow. All i can say is, you clearly don't know what you're talking about. Not trying to be rude or to start a flame war -- but its obvious that you've never seriously invested in EBJ tourneys or you'd realize that it completely adds a whole new level of skill to the game.

NEW RULE: those who would like to assert that EBJ is less skill based/more luck based than traditional tourneys must actually PLAY it first!

-hd.

ps i also hope you were not inferring by your comment about not playing craps tourneys -- perhaps one of the most difficult tournament disciplines to master & the proving ground of such pros as Russ Hamilton, Blair Rodman, Anthony Curtis, even Stanford Wong -- that there is not a lot of skill there as well...

 

YING AND YANG of tourneys

Even traditional tourneys have evolved.

One great Joepism was "Let me know who read Wong, so I can wrong him." Or something like that. (come on ya'll give me literary license.)

If one can give credit to Wong it was in how to play optimumly against "invitees". As more and more playas confronted each other in the tourneys Wong alone was not enough. Hasn't been for some time. Hence, the Ken Smithisms, Joepisms, et al. The problem with the traditional tourneys has been the inconsistancy, the suit backlash and any number of complaints anyone and everyone has posted about them.

The EBJ format among other things was an attempt to standardize, equalize and "fairnessize" the tourneys. And in an evolutionary sense, the format wasn't hatched, born, created, big banged into existence, before it began morphing. Not dramatically, but enough that it took, takes constant thought and recognition of the strategy nuances as well as numbers play.

Either format is worthwhile to a professed tourney player if the "payout" is there.

And neither should be viewed in a petrie dish or thru a microscope as an enigma of its own. Just as a view of evolution is not complete, unless one incorporates other scientific disciplines into the overall discussion.

If one ignores the genetic work and research of FRUIT FLIES, long established before Darwanism, one can make any statement they want about evolution. Nothing exists in and of itself only. The strings of the universe have to be played as a chord or one becomes relegated to Johnnie "ONE NOTE"

 

Another .25 cents worth

I bring thing topic to the foreground again because of the similarities that I see with the two current camps – traditional blackjack tourneys (TBJT) and the newer elimination blackjack tourneys (EBJ).
The major voices for evolution, Stephen Jay Gould, has his pedigree from Harvard University. He has spent his entire career expounding upon natural selection and evolution as a fact, drilling it into the heart and minds of the campuses throughout America and the world.

On the other side of the fence, advocating Intelligent cause would be well known lawyer Phillip E Johnson. Using logic and pointing out the flaws, or missing links, in the theory of evolution, critics of Mr. Johnson have dismissed him as a crackpot. The people who dismiss intelligent design/cause state that it is not scientific because it cannot be tested and therefore cannot be proved. However, when Phillip Johnson and his supports apply that same criteria to natural selection evolution the same is true. Evolution cannot be tested and therefore cannot be proved. Once again how does this relate to TBJT versus EBJ?

The most vocal critics of EBJ claim that the increased variance introduced by the forced eliminations, secret bets, secret actions and betting limits reduce the level of skill required hence these vocal skilled critics claim that it is not in their best interest to play the game and therefore the game, EBJ is no good. The interesting thing is that many of these vocal critics, when pressed about their ACTUAL experience with EBJ will, if truthful, admit that their ACTUAL, experience is very limited – if they have any experience at all. Their protest against EBJ stems from a HYPOTHETICAL understanding of the variables involved.

[Now let me state emphatically and let this be my personal disclaimer, I have no affiliation with any organization/group/website, etc. My comments are purely based upon my personal preferences.]

My initial purpose in placing these posts is to challenge the status quo. It is my hypothesis that certain mantras, when repeated often enough, begin to get accepted by all as gospel, when in fact that may or may not be the case. My second hypothesis is that people, as a general rule, dislike change and are resistant to accept it.

Is there a right or a wrong? I don’t have the experience or right to claim I know the answer, I am merely on a journey to seek the truth – its out there!

PS. Noman - I raised fruit fly in my Biology lab for four (4) semesters. The smell continues in those long dark nights. It was amazing to breed diamond eyes with round eyes. Four wings and 2 wings and the occassional rare two headed drosopholia! Neverthelss, try as we may (and we TRIED) we never got the little bastards to turn into geiko's! Drat.

As a matter of fact we could actually predict that when two Drosophlia with recessive genes were crossbreed that a recessive rare trait was bound to become visible in the offspring - chance or the result of an intelligent design? You be the judge!

 

Fk

My God man! Proof enough of survival of the fitest. How could a fruit fly support all the weight of geiko ing it. Dominance. Don't confuse the monkeys and the apes with the bannanas. It is after all only one self protected enclave searching futily for the missing link.

Indeed it would be inteligent design to have a fruit fly the size of a geiko.

 

My Vote: EBJ Is A Skill Game!

GOTTA absolutely go with Hollywood and Ken on this, and not just because they really should know what they're talking about. EBJ involves more skill--I can't see anyone being able to refute that really. And for me, it is more interesting to play.

As to the skill issue, the above quote from Monkeysystem nicely sums up some of the strategic variables that a player can work with. Has anyone read Ken's or James Grosjean's articles in "All In" the past couple of months? They are solid evidence that if one thinks about how to benefit from these new variables, there are tangibly better moves to make. If James "Beyond Counting" Grosjean (and his compadre Previn M.) start to dig around in this, you can bet they are eyeing a new game that involves some clear ways to exploit weaknesses in a less-strategic competitor at that table (or virtual table).

For me, I've played both conventional TBJ --not a ton of matches, but enough to know what that's about, and over 100 min. 30-player EBJ tourneys, excluding freerolls. I have personally observed the same relatively small list of players cash in these tourneys (and probably well over a hundred more that I've observed) over and over. To me, that also provides solid, results-based evidence that these players are playing at a higher skill level. It could of course be that they posess some voodoo luck charms that we'd all like to get our hands on, but I'll stick with the former theory...

P.S. I probably should have entitled this post: "Enough with the fruitflys already--let's talk about blackjack!"

 

sabrejack:

Fine points. And HA HA!

But doncha know, there's always a fly in the ointment!

 

Hummmmm...

Lets compromise......How about old school vs new school??

EBJ requires more skill! It also requires more luck! The added variables make it far from a carnival game ...nor do they invoke needed luck....you have to skillfully play taking these new variables into consideration....you have to do it quite more often as well.

In the old school game you can sleep or at least play much of this game with one eye open...until the critical final third or so....try that with EBJ and you are ELIMINATED!

There are always folks who resist change but I dont think this is a novelty game or that old school tournaments will remain the norm....

I fully agree that old school is less stimulating...EBJ is the future....

Before poker was POKER...what percentage of the general population knew the game Texas Holdum? TV made it POP! TBJ is dead boring on tv...EBJ is the texas Holdum of BJ games....better on the eye and more interesting.

Its the future ....dont fight it...

So fruit fly experts....when Im eating a peach Im really ingesting fruit fly eggs too right?

Thats just not right....

 

for the record

I have played quite a bit of EBJ on-line - and am money ahead on that play - which is amazing - because I mainly play on-line to test different strategies and bets and progressions, etc. - some of which get pretty weird - and do not use the same play I do in live tourneys - probably speaks to how bad the typical on-line player in the cheap games is - I like EBJ on-line because it is nothing but end play - and that is an area of play I need to work on - and playing EBJ has been very helpfull -

and every aspect of any game is subject to some level of "skill" being brought into it - but - there really is no question that the short hand sequences between elimination hands increases the relative variance that impacts play and that secret bets restrict information - both of which increase the roll of luck and decrease the roll of skill - that's simple fact - live with it -

why do people have to try to make EBJ seem like some great advance in tournament BJ? - it's simply gimmicked up tournament BJ - with some wierd carnival game rules thrown in - to give the high rollers a more even chance and make the casinos happy - and make it more appealing for TV - if it gives you an adrenaline rush - great - but don't try to play it up as something it is definitely not -

maybe it'll catch on - it seems to be working somewhat on-line - but then it is the only game on-line right now - except for one little played, evidently, alternative -

I think the TV shows are pretty boring actually - and poorly produced and edited - my personal opinion -

and yes - Hollywood - I am inferring that craps tournaments are luck as opposed to skill - but - lets keep in mind that the average gambler is an idiot - and plays below the random chance odds - just watch the play in any casino - when was the last time you saw anyone at a BJ table playing anything close to basic strategy - which has been very well publicized - the casinos even sell bs cards - and will let you use them at the tables - and I have heard pit bosses tell players about them - and bs takes about 30 seconds to memorize - and 99% of bj players don't know it - the average player plays so badly - that they actually harm themselves - and give the house - and even a semi-skilled player in tournaments - a great advantage -

that doesn't make craps a game of skill - it just means if you don't bet like a total idiot - that you'll probably outlast those who do - but I guess if you want to think that not being totally stupid equates to skillful play - well -

note to fgk42: doesn't belong in a bj discussion - but - since you've brought it up - there are many problems with the various theories of evolution - they are all quite questionable in many aspects - but offering mythology as a replacement is not a scientific advance any more than EBJ is a more skillful game than regular tournament BJ - to reverse your analogy

 

shaved apes

Variance is being manipulated in EBJ vs TBJ but it's six of one and half a dozen of the other. The secret bets, the face down doubles, the forced eliminations, do increase variance but also add tools to the skilled players toolbox. Is it equally balanced? I'm not sure. My personal opinion is that the biggest effect in favour of the skilled player is the reduction in the number of players towards the end of the game. We all know that EBJ is often heads-up in the endgame and rarely more than 3 people. Traditional TBJ on the other hand will commonly have a full field of 5 or 6 players, all in contention. Variance is much more likely to see you lose the TBJ game than the EBJ game.

Cheers

Reachy

 

Just 4 U Noman

Alas, no matter how I may slice it, massage the rationale, manipulate my ideas or postulate my hypothesis I must admit that yes Virginia EBJ has increase variance – acceptance of Fact A. The introduction of so many different variables that have been discussed open the door for chance and happenstance. I have steeped my “arguments” on the belief that these new “tools” were nothing more than weapons that could be used to further my ability to advance in EBJ and that since I “understood” the “proper” usage of these tools I can benefit from their application.

Nevertheless I cannot argue with cold hard facts – dammit! Needless to say I was convinced of this by the use of undeniable mathematical formulas that would bore everyone here, (except S. Yama) in a very practical and understandable format.

Therefore, if EBJ has more variance than TBJT it must favor the less skilled players since skill level is directly correlated to a decrease in variance – no? This seemed like the logical progression once I had accepted fact A. For if A = B and B = C then surely A = C!

I dusted off my old logic books and reviewed many chapters of forgotten text. Lo and behold while the logic train appeared sound it was only applicable if I had the right cars on the track. With the elimination of secret bets, the elimination of other players and the other constants being variable and the variables being constant the whole ship began to list! [This chapter is dedicated to Noman ]

As I sat drinking my hot chocolate and musing over the posts it got me thinking again – a dangerous past time. Does it matter? Skill versus more skilled versus less skilled versus “ploppie-ville-skill”

What does it all mean? Of that I’m not sure. I do know that in my quest for a greater, deeper understanding of the game I have unearthed some interesting findings. Doe does it relate to actual play – that remains to be seen. Does EBJ vs TBJT require more or less skill – depends upon whom you talk to, how often you play, where and when you play.

Is this discussion helping or hurting the cause, the issue the future of TBJ in general? I don’t know but warring factions rarely win as discord creates ill will, loathing and mistrust. Or to quote a famous movie star, “fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate leads to the Dark Side! Much fear I sense in you young one …………..”

Alas I've stirred the pot long enough. It was good to see discussions once again - the positions giving me enough food for thought - digestion time is a must.

 

-stirring the pot?

I'm admittedly new to this forum, but I've taken the past month to extensively look over past posts, particularly those concerning the Ultimate Blackjack Tour, as well as its corresponding online gaming format. I know from personal experience, that there are those on this forum who've invested heavily, financially and time-wise, in the UBT schism; nevertheless, there is a very defineable trend many of us on the "outside" have recognized within the rhetoric of so very many of these posts... and that trend is, that "whenever" one of this forum's "other" members have the slightest negative, opposing, or simply indifferent view of UBT "anything," they are descended upon by at the very least, 2 or 3 of the former... "ganged up on," I believe is the generic terminology.

How about "backing off" guys, let this UBT thing breathe... If it is meant to be, it will stand on its own two feet, if not, all of this "driving it into the ground," will only be "one" of the reasons "why" it didn't survive.

And fgk42, do you know that an authentically intelligent man is one who takes the complicated and makes it simple; and the idiot who wants to "appear" intellectual, takes the simple and makes it ungodly boring and complicated? Get Real!

 

Not on my watch

CastellanaQ

I think this thread has been generally very measured with responses from both "sides" of the debate and little or no antagonism. I agree with you that in the past posts on this subject did get a little heated but that cannot be said here. If anything you are the "aggressor" with your needless attack on fgk42. His post may be lengthy and rambling, and I personally take issue with some of the non-TBJ stuff, but it has a lot of value.

It always disappoints me when first time posters feel they have to come in with "negative" posts; it sets the tone for their future input and I always think it is difficult for them to recover from it.

Cheers

Reachy