My original choice of title for this thread was "Has the UBT failed?" but I thought that may be a little incendiary and I don't want things kick off again. The reason I ask the question, "has it failed?", is because some of the posts I read elsewhere are using language like "...the reason UBT failed is....", like it's already happened. Living over the pond I don't have access to the US media, and I've certainly never seen the show so I can't really appreciate what the impact is. Is it seen as successful? Is it's future assured? Do you think that if it failed that would set back the world of TBJ? Cheers reachy
I wouldn't call it a failure... ..but I'd say it definitely has been a victim of poor timing. It seems like the original concept of the UBT show was to give the game exposure that would lead to heavy online play. Considering that the problems with internet gaming in the US arose shortly after the UBT got off the ground, I'm sure that really hurt it. Although I know no official reason has been given, I'd assume that this has to be part of the reason we haven't seen the monthly events we thought we'd see as the UBT began. I do; however, give Russ and others involved with the UBT credit for making every effort to try to reinvent a concept that will make it a fruitful endeavor. They got dealt a shitty hand and, being poker players, they're playing it the best way they believe they can. The ClubUBT thing is a start. It's going to provide a legal means for people in the US to play online. Unfortunately, as mentioned by others, it's target audience probably isn't many of us here as most of us don't want to play for iPod docks. The building of partnerships with casinos is also big. So far, only Barona has really done it right. But, nonetheless, the exposure that they get from these types of partnerships leads to creation of more and more tournament blackjack players. The key here is to get Venetian and Palms to promote things half as well as Barona does and they may have something. Maybe someone can talk the Maloofs into just hiring Max as a marketing consultant and get that issue solved =P The other positive is that instead of just having Sharkman and Bet21 spots during the show, the future may hold more of a traditional advertising revenue. We've seen some of that in its syndication run on cable and if that continues and carries over to first run airings in the second season...well...there's a revenue stream that didn't really exist before. I think the key to success...or failure...will be the ability to adjust to the world without the profitability they could have had with more online gaming. If they're able to do that, and find another way to make it profitable, they'll succeed. If not, they'll fail. It's just a little premature to make a judgment either way until they have a chance to adjust the product in it's second season. We'll see.
Attaboy, Ace I think Ace has hit it completely out of the park with that post. UBT has only had one season on TV. It needs time to really get going, and if you're doubtful of that, look at the TV numbers (and prize funds) for the World Poker Tour while comparing their first season vs. the current numbers. For that matter, do the same with the WSOP by comparing pre- and post-Moneymaker. UBT did get blindsided with the UIGEA, it probably put a big hole in the business model. But it needs more TV exposure. The online entry counts and participation seemed to roughly triple while the WGN reruns were going, and have dwindled substantially in the many weeks since those reruns ended (only considering the Win A Final Table Seat events). In this ploppy's opinion, the ideal situation would be for WGN to run Season 1 again - ASAP. Change the previous UBT promo spots to tout clubUBT and the scheduled first run of Season 2. That clubUBT concept doesn't need players like us BJT.com folks to succeed, it needs mainstream gamblers who go to their local casino and stuff Jacksons into those nickel and penny video slots. The best way to reach them is TV exposure. In turn, it will help create demand for live TBJ play, which will go a long, long way towards creating demand from the casinos themselves. Look what happened to poker rooms, post-Moneymaker. Those were certainly not abundant, but now damn near every casino has a nice big room for the TVEPP's (TV educated poker players).
5 years The rule of thumb for a business plan is 5 years of pain then the gain. If you start a company and make it in less than 5 years you are dang lucky. If you can churn it and turn it in 5 years the golden rainbow might be found, or give it up dont throw your life away chasing a mirage. As for UBT I have stated I saw it two and out and this might be true for UBT TV. Why? As Ace stated the advertisers are bet21 and sharkman DVD, sharkman DVD is offered by a discount video operation that sells off videos and also sells Phill Helmuth and Annie Duke poker videos. My guess is bet21, sharkman, Annie, Phil, and UBT are linked via friends and or owners of UBT EBJ. So, this year if UBT comes back to CBS I think its important to see at least a couple of good sponsors. Thats the TV show, the game itself has a bright star, BARONA. The business plan there was to involve as many high rollers as possible while leaving the event open for drive up newbies. This combination has been a glaring success. I would have to say this bodes well for the live game. Also, Joep has taken over the live games in Vegas and elsewhere it seems. Already we have seen the last Venetian game have lower buy price and the next big game is more affordable with low house take. Perhaps the live side is coming alive. We will see.
with hindsight I think UBT failed the very day it started up - we are just watching the long, drawn out, death rattle - and I am not saying that to be mean - or because I am 'anti-UBT' - several key things - 1. there are two very obvious reasons tbj hasn't taken off like poker trournaments have - a. poker is a person-to-person competition - persons who LIKE that element play poker - persons who DON'T LIKE that type of competition play blackjack - where the competition is against an impersonal 'house' - tbj turns blackjack into a personal competition - exactly the type of game most bj players DON'T WANT to participate in - just check out the 'politically correct' pseudo-politeness that rules in tbj - at the next tournament you play in (excluding Rick's events, where all the sharks come out to play) - try saying you want people to lose when you counter-bet a hand - instant unpopularity - you are being 'not nice' - b. poker tournaments are very, very much like regular poker - tbj is quite different from regular bj - and UBT mucks it up even more with secret bets and elimination hands - making the adjustment for someone moving from bj to tbj even more difficult - now, add in, a web-casino that starts off by failing to live up to its promises with offered bonuses and books - that places unnecessary and insane obstacles and stalls when people try to withdraw their money - cancels out promised events - and throw in some poorly marketed events and so-so production value tv shows - and you just aren't going anywhere - I think Barona may be doing well - simply because they know how to market an event - and could probably do as well selling regular tbj, or a craps tourney, or whatever - then, of course, kill off any chance they might be able to fix the poor start with a law banning internet gambling for Americans - I just don't see UBT lasting through a second year, it got to be a real money loser to date - and where is the turnaround coming from? - no matter how much we might want to see tbj take off - UBT is the wrong vehicle, at the wrong time, and its been badly done - thinking UBT is going to suceed and start a tbj expansion is false hope - unfortunately - wish it would happen - but I think a well operated series of tbj events - such as Rick is starting - offers much more promise - as these can become a model for casinos to follow and implement similar tourneys - either with or without Rick's help - this is not 'opposing' the TBJPA against UBT - there would be room for both, certainly - but UBT just is not doing a good enough job to survive - and that has been from the start - poorly conceived idea, poorly structured marketing, poorly conceived game - marketed to the wrong audience, and too many promises not lived up to, damaging credibility and trust - Rick may or may not suceed with his tourneys - but I think he has a much better chance of doing so than UBT has of surving through a second year -
Wow, what a thread. Given the atmosphere here for the past few weeks it is surprisingly quite. I wonder why? I have to agree with both Ace and RKuczek in that both had great points/posts – especially when they come at the topic from totally different angles. While I think it’s too early to start playing taps for the UBT they definitely have a hole to dig out of. It is my belief that they “overplayed” their hand in the beginning. Holding land based $2,500 events created too high of a barrier for novice players. Who made that decision? Well when you compare the UBT $2,500 entry fee to the poker world it looks comparable, however that is comparing apples to oranges. If the goal of the UBT was to create a high rollers “club” for bigger name players to create a name for themselves, in essence a vehicle for notoriety, then it could be considered a success as Team UBT members Hollywood and Kenny Einiger both won multiple UBT medallions. However, if you want poker players to play EBJ then you’ve got to market the game to the poker players and market it heavily. The game plan that was done in Aruba where the UBT was piggybacked off the UB weeklong poker event was in my opinion, a very smart and strategic move. Holding the EBJ freeroll the day before and having the SNG and satellites was great marketing. However since that time the relationship between UB and UBT has grown strained and as evidenced by the upcoming UB Aruba event WITHOUT EBJ I don’t think the two parties are talking anymore (just my assumption). I think that an alliance with UBT and with WSOP or WPT would be very beneficial to BOTH parties and would be the quickest and easiest way to infuse the UBT with “new blood.” The relationship of EBJ with Bet21.com started off great. There was definite interest – everyone remember sitting/laying all those freerolls in September-November? However due to specific problems (UIGEA and poor communication on the part of Bet21.com) that relationship didn’t prosper to the full extent that the powers behind EBJ/UBT & Bet21.com had hoped for. Another area that has hindered the UBT is the relationship between UBT and the land based casinos. With the exception of Barona most of the other casinos have done a less than stellar job of promoting EBJ. That, in my opinion, is the biggest reason that UBT will have trouble succeeding. Unless people can actually play a live game, the UBT is doomed to fail. Playing online is one thing – in person it’s a whole different animal and therein lies the problem. Why has Barona succeed and the others not done as well? Marketing, clientele, location, etc. My personal belief is that Max Rubin probably has a lot to do with this – but than again what do I know? Unless a broader assortment of land-based casinos start to provide EBJ style tournaments &/or SNG’s the UBT concept WILL fail. Sad – but true. That transitions directly into the observations make by RKuczek. While Ace’s comments looked at UBT from a profit/loss and general overall consideration, I believe that RK’s viewpoint is more from a player’s viewpoint and in particular a BJ players viewpoint. I wrote earlier about an article in the July All In magazine that was written about EBJ from a poker players perspective (an article that I highly recommend) and one of the reasons that I found it so intriguing is the insight that the article sheds upon the psyche of poker players. For example the article mentions that Freddie Deeb used his poker skills to talk his opponent into using their secret bet earlier than they should have (according to the article). From most of the land based BJ tournaments that I have played in talking and in particular smack talking, in definitely frowned upon. RK is correct in that the BJ players, for the most part, are non-confrontational. (This is a GENERAL observation and doesn’t apply to many BJT.com members). Poker players and BJ players are just too different breeds and I don’t think that there are many who will demonstrate the same passion for both TBJ and poker. While RK, and many others feel that secret bets and elimination hands “muck up” the BJT experience I believe that they enhance it and were done to market the poker market. Unlike most experienced BJT players I take the stance that EBJ didn’t go far enough. I would like to see EBJ do the following: have the dealer use a SINGLE DECK and deal FACE DOWN, while keeping everything else the same. Use the poker cams for the TV version. The BJT purists will definitely cry foul and say I’m nuts (like I haven’t heard THAT before) but EBJ isn’t about the BJ players is it? It’s about creating a NEW market, an amalgamation between the best of BJ and poker. Think about this – how many people watched poker BEFORE the pocket cams? When all the cards are visible and everyone knows what the chip totals are who has the advantage – the math whizzes not the people who have skills in reading “tells”, which by the way is a very important skill. Finally – I had an opportunity to view a prior GSN broadcast of WSOB season 3, in particular the match featuring Kenny Einiger and Paul Haas. I watched the entire episode and all I have to say is this. If anyone believed that skill played a bigger role than luck in BJ tournaments have them watch that episode. I don’t have the background between Kenny and Paul, nevertheless I briefly remember some of Paul’s postings earlier in 2007 as he tried to qualify for the 2007 WSOB. I can say this – Paul was definitely lucky and got some good cards. He demonstrated his lack of experience several times but it didn’t matter as he went on to win that round. Watching Kenny and Paul reminded me out a post by eliburk, “I love watching grown men fight”. There’s something about that type of behavior that captures the viewers – I mean look at Jerry Springer! In fact I believe that many people just pull up this site to see the “fighting” between certain members. Forgive my digression on this but my point is that the antagonist/protagonist is a necessary factor in order to viewers to tune in and care about the characters. The way WSOB is done this provides the audience an opportunity to find “characters” that they care about. UBT is just a snapshot in time and there is no telling who the characters are week to week. In my opinion the UBT would have been better served showing the tables that lead up to the final tables. In the intro/lead sections there are several shots of “antics”/smack/etc. that would have made for better TV than some of the final table shows (just a personal opinion). An example of this would be American Idol. Does the best singer win? NOPE. Why? American Idol is a reality TV show that uses singing as it medium. The UBT should follow the same format and do it as a reality TV show that uses BJ as its medium. However with season 2 “in the can” it will be more of the same as season 1, another version of WSOB with lights and little gimmicks. So finally how do you define success? Is it to show profitability? Is it to have recognition, fame, and fortune? Is it all of the above or none of the above? I think it’s a little premature to throw dirt on UBT at this time. However, in my mind it definitely has a long journey in order to dig itself out of the financial hole in which it currently resides. What is the solution? Will ClubUBT be the savior of the UBT? How about better ratings for season 2? More land based tournaments? How about an alliance with a poker tour? Lots of questions abound – anyone got the answers? I hope so because I for one, would hate to see EBJ go away.
a couple more comments good post fgk two thoughts after having a little more time to think - first - marketing UBT as 'the new poker' - I think they were definitely going after the poker players - and maybe hoping to suck in some bj players - they really emphasized the poker players who were on team UBT - and how ebj brought poker 'skills' into bj tournaments - so what was their marketing plan? - to offer something to poker players other poker sites didn't have? - if so - this doesn't seem to have worked - and they seem to have had little concern about the tbj players - only the poker players got the bonus money, etc. second thought - when poker took off - it was because non-pro players were able to find affordable games in their local casinos and on line - and could win their way into the WSOP through low cost satelites - both online and in local casinos - then Moneymaker won the Main Event - and that was it - there was a synergy between the local/online small money games and the big tournaments - UB missed that - by focusing on the big money tournaments - without a local casino/online base of support - without the local/online poker play - there would not have been a Moneymaker or the big supply of eager players for the WSOP - UB would have been better served to bring their game into local casinos and online - for affordable entry fees - then build up to the 'championship/pro' tour - or try to build simultaneously - but they tried to do it 'top down' - and didn't have the 'feeder network' of local casinos and wide spread online play - to funnel players into the big money tourneys
