Atlantic City Report

I played in the Harrah's open tournament this past weekend in Atlantic City and thought I would give a report. As most of you are aware, AC is not known for Blackjack or open BJ tournaments. Comments from other players was this is the first open tournament held in many years there. They have a few invitation only tournaments, but most of the players are not experienced tournament players since they have no local casinos that regularly host open tournaments. All BJ tables are evidently dealt from shoes of six to eight decks. I did not see any pitch games at all anywhere.

Since this was the first tournament for Harrah's, most of the dealers had never dealt with a rotating button, so it took some time before they quit making mistakes. I recommend NOT playing in the first time slot of the first round in their tournament unless you are willing to accept mistakes. The dealers were not even dealing consistently (dealing from first base versus from the button, dealing their cards after third base versus after the last position, etc.) Each dealer was kind of doing their own thing. The tournament director did a good job of correcting errors when it was pointed out to him, but I think the dealers should have had more training on how to deal properly. Once the "rules" were clarified, they did a good job of picking up and dealing correctly.

The Harrah's format was different. To get to the final table you had to win the first round (three players advance from table), second round (one player advances from table), and a semi final (one player advances from table). Prize money was only paid to final table (seven players), and second place finishers on semi final table (8 - 14).

There is no count during play, except at final table where a count was taken prior to final hand. Also in the final table, the final bet is made in secret. In all other rounds there are no counts and you can't ask for one.

Rules say you have to keep chips visible, but it doesn't stipulate that you have to keep denominations separated. Some people would just keep single stack. I didn't hear anyone question chip stacking or playing with your chips, but I know my wife was once attacked by another player when she asked him to please let her count his chips. Usually I would put my chips out properly as soon as I got them and most others would follow by example. Blue and black chips ($500 and $100) were close in color, so be sure to watch payouts. If you put a $600 bet (black on top of blue) the dealer might pay you two blacks by mistake or sweep your bet if you lose and pay the person next to you your two chips ($600) for his $200 bet.

Minimum bet $100 and all bets in $100 increments. $5000 bankroll. No limit on bets, so you could go all in anytime you wanted. Since there is no limit on final hand most players seemed to go all in thinking it was their best bet. Surviving to final hand could still work for you if there are two people fighting for final hand wins with all in bets and you can get the dealer to win while you hold out a few chips.

Playing 25 hands meant there was a shuffle during play. This is the first tourney I have played in where they changed dealers in the middle of the game. Sometimes it was at the shuffle, other times it was mid game. I wasn't sure why they did this. One thing to watch for is that the button ends up where it is supposed to on the last hand. The dealers had a stack of chips they used to track hand counts, but they were not numbered so if they missed moving a chip, an incorrect position could result for the last hand. It is a good idea when you get towards the end to ask the dealer how many hands are left and verify where the button will end. If there is a problem let the dealer/director know so it can be corrected immediately rather than getting down to the last hand.

One last unique item to note. The dealers did not peak at hole cards for ace or ten up. Determination of dealer blackjack was not made until after all play completed. This is similar to global-player online. Just be sure to watch your doubles/splits if the dealer has a blackjack. The dealers might forget to return your add on bets.

I think Harrah's will probably be holding more open tournaments in the future. They seemed to be happy with the turnout even if they were not full. The tournament was played in one of the meeting rooms upstairs from the main floor, but they also set up live blackjack tables in the room to the side so you could play while waiting around.

 

Great report. Aside from not looking at the holecard, what other std rules apply? Does the dealer stay or hit on soft 17? I'm assuming double any 2 cards, double after split, 1 card after splitting aces, yadda yadda yadda..

Keep those of us here on the east coast informed

 

Hopefully,this is the start of something new. I,for one,would certainly patronize a casino that sponsered some tourneys.

 

I was doing a search for BJ tournament rules, hoping to find comments from players about what format is preferred for tournaments, and I came across this thread. Believe it or not I am the manager who ran this tournament. Yes, it was a bumpy start but most of the dealers did find their rhythm. I know it wasn’t perfect but a large majority of the players asked when are next tournament was going to be as they were leaving, so I took that as a good sign the event wasn’t a bust.

When I designed the tournament I wanted an “Elimination” tournament, win your table and move on, however this format leaves you open for unbalanced tables in future rounds.

If you could design your idea of a perfect tournament what are the most important items, your “must haves?”

How do your feel about wildcards to ensure future rounds have perfectly balanced games or would you rather the possibility of unbalanced games and stick to win your table and advance format?

How many hands are a fair number?

Yes there will be tournaments in the future but I have no firm dates and all tournaments need to be approved by the NJ CCC prior to advertising.

Thanks
John

 

The perfect tournament

ACJohn, Rick Jensen (TXtourplayer on this forum), of Texas Tournaments is a prime source for the information you want. He has survey results from players and the written rules for the cruise tournaments he put on last November are among the best I’ve seen.

You can private message him here or call at 1-866-839-8687.

As to my ‘druthers for the must-haves:

1. Table elimination format, with two players advancing, 6 players per table.
2. Rebuys available in Round 1 to fill out the tournament.
3. Wild cards to even out the players/table and no wild cards into the final round.
4. 25 hands with a chip count at 5 or 3 hands before the end.
5. Maximum bet of 50% or less of starting bankroll.
6. Surrender available.
7. Normal BJ payoff of 3:2.
8. No secret bet.

 

Thanks Jackaroo

Jackaroo thank you so much for those kind words, it is nice to know I am doing somethings right. I try my hardest to make any tournaments I am involved in "Player Friendly".

Hope to see you and the Mrs. soon, take care.

Rick

 

Rick, you're quite welcome.

By the way did you get that phone #? It's 866 [SIZE=+3]TEX TOUR[/SIZE] :joker:

--Jack

 

Thanks for the replies so far

I am all ready addressing one rule from the input on this site. I am rewriting the "Stacking of Chips" in clear view rule.

So far only one person has given me their Must Haves anyone else?

Counting the hands will now be done with dics marked 1st hand 2nd hand... The dealer will replace the disc with the next hand number as they move it to the next player after a hand.

Thanks
John

 

Different color chip

ACJohn I agree with Ken about using chips with numbers for rotating and counting the hands. I would like to add that the use of a different color chip (Prior) to the count will help remind your dealer (about the count).

Note: you should count before playing the colored chip not after. This will avoid dealers fogetting to count.

I also suggest a double count and to use a table card. The double count should be made with 5 hands remaining and then again with one. The table cards list all the players and there chip totals after each count. This card should be placed on the table in plain veiw for all the players to see.

As far as misdeals Ken is right about taking control over the dealers. I have a complete set of rules and breakdown on how to handle misdeals along with 33 others for tournament player.

These rules protect both the players and the casinos.

 

Another Biggie

ACJohn, have your dealers try to match up winning bets with matching stacks of chips. I see more problems with dealers coloring up on a winning payout then any other problems.

The dealer may color down after the hand should they need to.

Another is don't color down a rainbow bet while in the betting area! Lots of times players will stack multi colors of chips out for there bet trying to throw the other players off.

Example:
30 red ($5 = $150)
10 green ($25 = $250)
1 black ($100)
equals = a $500 bet, but is harder to count down then 1 purple $500 chip or even 5 $100 chips.

You have to let the players be able to play the games within the game, just like poker has bluffing.

 

My comments

ACJohn,

Thanks for taking the time and effort to improve your tournament. It is encouraging for us as players to find tournament directors who are really interested in running a good tournament for the players to enjoy and one that will help the casino as well.

I think Jack's list was good. The two changes you have already made are a big help. Jack didn't like wild cards, particularly for the final table, but it is a good way to keep everyone in your casino and creating more action. I've never been fortunate enough to get one yet, but I know several players who have benefited from getting one (Right Rick!) Wild cards work to fill out semi final tables and are used to seat the seventh position on the final table.

I think Jack's list covers most of my preferences, the only two "must haves" were the two you are fixing already, keeping chips stacked by denomination and having some system to make sure the button is rotated and hands played are in sync.

As far as other preferences, I prefer that the tournament area be non smoking. I think yours was non smoking. I think you allowed drinks at the table which really doesn't bother me, but maybe you should limit drinks being served during play. I find that a little distracting.

A one day tournament is nice. I think yours started Friday night and concluded on Saturday. Friday night is hard for people who work, starting early on Saturday morning and finishing either Saturday night or doing the semi-finals and finals on Sunday is my preference. I like rebuys. It gives someone who has come a long way to play another shot if they don't advance on the first try. Also offering some room and meal package is a way to encourage people to stay and play at Harrah's. We stayed at the neighboring "B" property since we had never been to AC before.

One last request. Please let us know when your next tournament will be as soon as you have a date set. It is nice to be able to plan a month or two in advance and budget accordingly. Come back and post us a note here and put it on the events schedule. I hope I can come back and play again.

Pat

 

No Smoking - No Drinks - Chip Color - Enforce Rules

ACJohn:

I'll leave rule suggestions to the more knowledgeable on this site. I'll restrict my comments to what I consider most irritating. I am a smoker and like to have a drink when playing live blackjack BUT ...

1) Smoking at a tournament is distracting and can be used to irritate a player next to the smoker. It also has the effect of distracting the dealer who has a hard enough time concentrating on the play. BAN SMOKING AT THE TOURNAMENT TABLES. It's best for everyone.

2) Drinks on the table can be used to hide chips, intentional or not. Allow a person to get a quick slug of water from a waitress if needed to clear a dry throat or cough but that's all. The remainder of the drink should be thrown out. BAN DRINKS AT THE TOURNAMENT TABLES.

3) Chip color. Color your chips so they will be distinctive. Don't use, for example, dark blue and black. If the chips are too close in color a player can disguise his true chip count too easily. USE DISTINCTIVE CHIP COLORS.

4) Instruct your dealers to STRICTLY enforce the rules. Especially: 1) keep chips separate by color, 2) ABSOLUTELY NO covering, handling, or playing with the chips except when it is a player's time to bet. I have seen many times when I'm trying to count a player's chips, he will purposely pick up a pile of chips to pretend like he is counting them when all he is really doing is trying to upset my chip counting efforts.

I think it's great that you are asking for player input for your tournaments. If other casinos did the same, everyone would have better tournaments and of course more profit for the casinos due to side action.

 

Pat is right plus a few more thoughts

Offering a tournament room rate is a very good way to assure most of the tournament players will be staying (and playing) at your property.

I find that a $49 per night rate is fair and should the players give the proper action that they be comp-ed out. Food I believe should be earned, so make it simple. If they play they get comp-ed if not they pay, simple and fair.

The other things covered are important, but what I look for most of all is how many players per table, how many advance from each table, re-buys, and how many get paid.

Two players advancing throughout is the best way to run your tounaments, I wouldn't play more then 6 on any table, and only 6 on the final table.

Wild Cards (which I hate) should be given away as needed, but only in the earlier rounds. I never have agreed with wild cards to the finals.

Payouts should be throughout the semifinals, why just the finals. Look at the success of poker, now just suppose only the final table won money, poker wouldn't be as popular as it is. Let more players get a taste of winning and your tournaments will grow. Just like poker has.

Now as far as re-buys, every player should be guaranteed one if not two. You're wanting players to travel in for your tournament then they should be given more than one chance. Plus the beauty of the re-buys is that the players put more money into the prize pool.

Last I think you should offer registration during Friday night and early Sat. with the tournament starting Sat. around 9:00 am. Play out the first round and re-buy rounds on day one.

Figure up how many players advanced and if you need any wild cards so that the remainder of the tournament will have the correct number of players remaining.

Day two: draw your wild cards as many as needed (if needed) at 8:45 so that the winners may take their seat(s) and start play at 9:00 am for round two.

You want the tournament over by 3:00, 4:00 pm at the latest so that the players may get back home as early as possible. Remember most of your players will have a job they have to be at on Monday.

Another good draw is to offer is a discounted entry fee for early registration. Give $50 off the entry for any entry in a month before the tournament.

 

Reward the open seat......don't blindly 'draw' for it

One possible way to fill an empty seat at the final table (or for that matter at any table in a preceeding round) would be to advance the 3rd place finisher from the previous round who had the highest chip count relative to the table winner.

As follows:
Table A
1st place finishes with 10,000 in chips
2nd place finishes with 9,250 in chips
3rd place finishes with 9,220 in chips

Table B
1st place finishes with 7,500 in chips
2nd place finishes with 6,00 in chips
3rd place finishes with 2,800 in chips

The 3rd place finisher at table A has 92.2 % of the amount of chips of the table winner. While the 3rd place finisher at table B has only 37.33 % of the amount of chips of that table winner. Pick the 3rd place finisher from table A to fill the "wild card position".

Advancing the 'best' 3rd place finisher will keep the players who are really out of the top two advancing places to continue to play keenly in order to possibly advance and/or it will reward the 3rd place finisher who just barley missed out on otherwise advancing (after all he/she may have only lost one minimum bet more than the person in second place who is advancing).

That/those announcements on the successful 3rd place finishers advancing could be made within a relatively short timeframe after that particular round is finished (it wouldn't/shouldn't take tournament directors too long to calculate the highest percentage 3rd place finisher......it is just simple math) and since final scores of each player from each table are recorded at the end of the match, it should be easy to determine.

Advancing a "wild card" position by simply the luck of the draw does not seem to be in the spirit of what the tournament is attempting to do.... and that is to advance the winning players (even if it is only a 3rd place winning player) as opposed to advancing a player who just gets lucky in a draw. Reward the player who plays well instead of "gambling" on a draw to pick a person to fill an empty seat.

I would think that there are many of you (us) out there that have just 'missed out' on advancing to the next round that would agree with me. Just think to yourself, "What could I have done at the next round had it not been for that one hand I lost when the dealer drew to a 6 card 21 and knocked me out of advancing by just $20.00 in chips".

 

Wild Cards

A wild card draw for all non qualifiers in previous rounds is a way for the casinos to keep more players at live tables waiting for the draw including one wild card for the finals. Lets not forget casinos host tournaments for their benifit (table action; profit) not to appease players desires. If casinos don't feel they will make a profit on tournaments, we can all save money on airfare because tournaments will cease to exist. Most tournaments are 2 days and if you knew after the 1st day you had no chance for a wild card, you would probably leave and give them no more table action.

I don't disagree with your thoughts as a positive benefit for players interests but we can't be selfish and need to realize the casinos have tournaments for their benifit not ours, we just have the opportunity to turn $299 or whatever into $25,000

 

Wild Cards, an economic necessity

Let's not forget why wild cards exist - it's an absolute economic necessity for the casinos. Casinos, like any business, make decisions with only one ultimate objective in mind - make money. Without the profit motive, there would be no casinos.

The casinos do not make any money on a tournament itself. Tournament players' side action is what makes the money. The reason why any casino has any tournament is to draw in players. Wild card drawings keep the players in the casino. Without wild cards, many if not most players would leave the casino immediately after loosing round 1. For tournaments that last 2 days, that's a lot of side action the casinos are loosing.

Besides, in some circumstances, skipping the re-buys and going for a wild card makes solid economic sense to a player who truly understands the probabilities involved. Don't we as tournament players want the best player to win, friendships not withstanding. If a player knows when to re-buy and when to go for a wild card instead of re-buying, he/she is closer to being an overall tournament winner.

The WSOB on TV does fine without wild cards because they cannot get any side action. Removing the wild cards from casino tournaments will ultimately mean no tournaments. Is that what we want? To those who don't like wild cards, I guess you'll have to live with it just like we all live with rules we don't like. Just consider it a necessary evil.

PS: It looks like rookie789 and I were thinking along the same lines and we were both typing our thoughts at the same time. You're one up on me rookie789.

 

No 3rd for me

I don't like the 3rd highest and never have. I am not trying to be mean, let me tell you why.

First if you have 17 tables with 2 advancing = 34 players
Now you could just offer 2 wild cards and it done.

By going to the highest two 3rd place finishers you have to check all 17 tables for the two with the highest totals. Now you start getting into problems, what if you have a tie? Now you have to run a playoff.

And the biggest problem is having to listen to the other 15 3rd place finishers who will all be crying that it wasn't fair that they were on a harder table.

It just isn't worth all the problems and the casinos won't want to put up with that and I don't blame them.

 

You guys are right, the casinos do like the side action for all of the players that hang around. However, the 3rd place finisher could be announced the next day, just as the wild card is. It would be hard to imagine that unless all of the players who were knocked out got together to calculate who is advancing and who is not (they would have to know all of the chip counts at the previous rounds tables, etc, etc, etc) they might, and probably would hang around to see if they made it as the "wild card" advancing player.

Also, if you include all of the preliminary rounds as rounds to calculate and determine which 3rd place finisher(s) advance, then, unless the tournament was really small where all of the placing and chip counts could be easily compared and determined, then it could still lead up to a surprise for the person(s) advancing. Of course, if the tournament were so small that the participants could determine who was advancing because they knew all of the chip counts of all of the players at all of the tables of the previous rounds, then you probably wouldn't be playing in it (the tournament) as a mid-size to major tournament. It would probably be the size of many of the weekly ones (this size tournament could be calculated as to who advances, but then again, this size tournament is a 2 to 4 hour tournament, not a big one taking 2, or possibly 3 days, ie, 1st day registration, 2nd day preliminary rounds, 3rd day final rounds).

And then again, if it takes a pick-em draw wild card to keep as many as 100 to 400 or 500 players around to see if they are THE luckiest of the players names to be drawn [that is only a .2% to 1% of the knocked out players based on above number of players hanging around), then they might be better at LUCK than at BLACKJACK.

It seems that there are really three types of travelers to blackjack tournaments.
1. Those that live locally to the tournament and would probably drive home the evening of the first day preliminary rounds whether they advanced or not.
2. Those that had to "travel in" to the tournament so they probably would have booked the entire weekend to play blackjack, be it in a tournament or live table play, which means they would probably be there both days anyway.
3. Those that just came for the first day, from either locally or afar, presuming they would be knocked out anyway and would be traveling home at the conclusion of the 1st day preliminary round(s).

I think the casino gets action from the players who 'want to play', ir-respective of weather the 'wild card' open position comes from a drawing or from earned play.