Blackjack "Two Diffferent Worlds"

I read this article by Arnold Snyder
http://www.cardozaplayer.com/go/archives/v02/i02/blackjack

It started me thinking! Are there really two different worlds in Blackjack? Are there two or perhaps even more different games? Can both worlds exists? Can they survive? Can they prosper? I am suggesting that the world of "Tournament Blackjack" and "Casino Blackjack" are very different. Yet traditional thinking considers them the same. In "Casino Blackjack" the Pro's want to remain anonymous. In "Tournament Blackjack" fame may not be a problem if it can evolve to a status similar to Texas Hold'em.

What if the casinos had no reason to fear "Tournament Blackjack" players? They could host the tournaments for a fee as in poker. Make a profit. Bring more people to their establishment. Get more publicity. A win/win situation?

I have read on this forum many suggestions on how to make blackjack more exciting for TV. There have been many suggestions on rule changes and formats changes. I have read many good ideas. I think there needs to be more presented. I hope to spark some new thinking on the subject with this thread. Lets really think oustide the box.

Here goes one thought. What if, during tournament play any person getting blackjack would then become the bank? That person would remain the bank until another person got a natural. If two players get a blackjack on the same round, then the last one would be the bank. What if the player who is the bank runs out of chips? Elimination? Should all players have enough chips so they couldn't run out? Well, you get the idea.

Please, let me hear your thoughts.

 

Your Idea

has merit. Certain things would need to be worked out--for example, bankroll. What happens when a player has the (mis)fortune to get 2-4 snappers in a row or during the duration of the tourney?

Along the same line of thinking, what if the dealer only deals(no cards) and each player becomes the bank (surrogate dealer's position) either by rotation of via bidding(Who says "Banko"?).

Regarding the magazine article, Arnold Snyder,"The Bish", has more practical advice on the game of blackjack (IMHO) the any expert in the field.

 

Times have changed and we need to as well

Tournaments in the 80's were big! We used to have 650 players at an event. What happened to those types of tournaments, piss poor marketing is my belief. They gave away a fortune (rooms, food, shows...ect) thinking that everybody there would be gambling. Well the times have changed and we need to as well.

We don't need nor want the logo golf shirt, the big banquets, and free rooms if it means no more open tournaments. Cut those expenses and just hold the tournaments for us without all the frills. Sure they are nice, but not needed.

How can we change what is happening? We have to show the casinos how they can make money by hosting these events. They already know by com-ping their VIP players they can because they it brings in the high rollers, but what about the average players that want to play in tournaments?

Well what about you? What are you willing to bring to the table? Most players want it the way it use to be, free room, food, gifts...etc. as part of their entry fee. Guy's those days are long gone and if we (all of us) don't start changing with the times the few that still offer at least a room or for that matter "Open" tournaments to all of us will be gone as well.

It is very simple people the casinos "DON"T NEED US" we need them if we want to play in tournaments. Just look at 6-5 single deck, has not playing changed anything, NO! It is just getting more widespread. Even the VIP tournaments are getting tighter; if you advance on the first day but don't give the casino enough action you will be disqualified.

The casino don't care about getting $1,200 or so from the entry fees (that doesn't even cover their expenses), but I hear players all the time bitching about their taking money out off the fees. Well Boo-F---ing-Who!

A casino is a business and if we want them to do for us then we have to do for them. Starting with paying fees (similar to poker tournaments), paying for room and food unless enough actions is been give them for comps. Until we do these things why should they do anything for us?

If you want to play in a tournament, expect to pay for your entry, room, food, and stop begging and bitching for freebies. If you want to beg go to the street corner somewhere.

I’m sorry, I am just tired of hearing the same shit over and over that the casinos owe us or are screwing us over. Please tell me how? So far all I hear is it is because they stopped giving everything away free. Just stop and listen to yourselves, do you give stuff away in your business? Don’t come back with pen, calendars, or some lame little promo item.

Also stop blaming the casinos it isn't the casinos; it is their personnel that ban players. The casino managers and marketing managers that don't know any better believe the counters and advantage players will ruin their tournaments. Why? Because they get one or more higher rollers complaining that it wasn't fair playing against a "PRO". Funny thing is, those same high rollers still can't win...LOL. The problem now is that by cutting so many (as they call them "PROS") the size of the tournaments has gone down if they still offer a tournament.

Come on people, I will give you a standing bet on almost any tournament you can pick the top 30 players and I'll take the rest and I will win over 80% of the time.

Too much luck is involved in tournament play. What the high rollers are really pissed about is they made some Dumb-Ass play that cost them and they got upset when a player beat them with a smarter play. Is it fair that smart players aren't allowed to play anymore? NO, but it happens all the time.

Let's work with the casinos and maybe just maybe the casinos will work with us.

 

Times have changed, Part 2

Rick,

You made some very good points in my opinion that have also been my thoughts. If the casinos would open BJ tournaments to the world with a paid entry let them rake a fee (hopefully not over 5%) then let the players earn a comped room, dinner etc. with their individual table play. The drawback to this is if you get a room included with the entry fee they assume you will table play there for the convenience and not stay at a Hotel/Casino 2 blocks away because the room is $25 cheaper. The Casino's will still have the option to invite "Hi Rollers" free of charge if they wish.

I also believe if there was a chip count down 3 or all of the last 5 hands, complaints from the "HI Rollers" of losing to Pros would almost cease. This may diminish some learned skills but may allow Pros to play in more tournaments which is the compaint, as I stated in an earlier post "I believe cream will still rise to the top".

I inquired about a tournament at CircusCircus/Reno held in July with comped room included and was told by a casino host only 80% of the $249 entry (room included) would be returned to players but it was a great deal for participants because known "Tournament Pros" would not be allowed to play.

 

right on guys

as a new addition to the tournament scene, i still have no problem with paying for a room or an entry fee for a tourney. I'm 23 years old and in college (and often broke), and be it a fee, required action, or rake; whatever, fine with me. that's just the cost of doing business with a casino. often on this board it seems to me that people forget that casinos are not not-for-profit organizations.

i've witnessed an unreal amount of bitching regarding advantage play and tournament "pros," but in all fairness, the casinos don't claim to be sources of easy money or any venue for the mathematically inclined to flourish. they don't hide the fact that the odds will always favor the house, and so forewarned is forearmed. it's why 12 years olds aren't allowed to place bets. they (the house) don't owe us anything, and so we should be glad for the chance to beat them at their own game.

i will never be able to share an experience or viewpoint with a person who makes a living from gambling, so i won't argue with those that derive their income from such a source. but as a casual, recreational gambler, i feel that i've been treated well by the casinos. i live in texas (vote KINKY 2006) and although i am subject to state gambling restrictions, have had many opportunities to participate in tourneys and more than quintuple my money. it's my choice to risk an entry fee or not. and while i may not appreciate the fact that casinos can and will penalize patrons for using their minds, i respect their right as a fiscally motivated entity to boost the bottom line by whatever means are available to them.

addressing (not admonishing) the brilliant tournament strategists: be thankful that you have an arena in which to exercise your skills. some casinos are shitty; some tournaments are stupid, but you still have the chance to excell and make a living at something that you find interesting and challenging. because of this, you're among an elite few in terms of skill and good fortune.

i wish such luck and pleasure to everyone on this board.

good cards,
kingslea

 

Circus-Cirucs Reno July BJ Tournament

Are you referring to the Carousel of Cash Blackjack Tournament that was held on July 23rd? My friend and I participated in that one. We had to pay for the room ($41 Fri, $51 Sat). But, we each got an entry into the tournament ($69 value each). $41+$51+$69+$69=$230.

Oh, the format was hybrid. And, I guess they have this kind of tournament three or four times a year.

 

Probably

Prospect,

You may be correct about the $230 I thought it was $249 but am probably wrong. I inquired about CircusCircus and a tournament at the Silver Legacy also in July with all entries including re-buys returned to the players and decided the Legacy was for me. The Legacy was $200 including room with a guaranteed $10,000 first, unfortunately a dealer BJ on the last hand of round 3 kept me from advancing to the semi finals. The format was single deck elimination with the puck moving every 2nd hand when the cards were shuffled.

 

Yes, I heard about the Silver Legacy BJ tournament being held on that very same weekend. And, I also heard that a few players participated in BOTH tournaments.

What kind of action do you need to provide to get that offer? Table game action? Video poker action?

 

Silver Legacy

It is actually an Invitational and my prior action at the SL was not enough for 100% comp but I was able to enter for $200 including room, I did eat all my meals there and they were comped when I checked out. Although I didn't meet him chipsmccoy told me he was there also and another is planned October 14-16. Maybe we can get a BlackjackTournaments.com table for the cocktail party Oct. 14

 

Key to the future of TBJ

IMHO the key to the future lies with Russ Hamilton and the TV show. The success of this project could make Tournament Blackjack as popular as Texas Hold’em has become. Russ said on Ken E’s radio show, “More people play blackjack than poker.” Tournament Blackjack is a form of blackjack like Texas Hold’em is a form of poker. Poker in general may have become more popular but if it did, it was due to the success of Texas Hold’em and TV bringing it to the masses. If the WBT project is successful, you may see casinos making more room for tournaments. Look at all the casinos now adding or bringing back poker rooms. Everybody wants to cash in on the action.

Imagine BJ tournaments being held several times per day at many different locations. Imagine sit-n-go tournaments at land-based casinos. Imagine all over the county people getting together with friends having BJ tournaments in their homes. Imagine local charities in those communities running BJTs to raise money for their cause. Imagine online casinos holding satellites to major events. It could happen. I hope it does. If it does, it will be good for the casinos, the players, the tournament pros, and all. There would be no reason for the casinos to fear the tournament pros. After all they are competing against other players not the casino. The casino can host the tourneys for a fee and make a profit from them. They still have regular blackjack for their high rollers. There are only so many high rollers so why not tap the mass market, the average guy who wants a chance at some big money. That is the attraction of Texas Hold’em. The average guy will pay the fees, play on line, play the satellites, and spend the money necessary for his shot at his dream. It could work for blackjack also.

 

Close

The new WBT will help but only if made affordable. As you mentioned satellites and Sit & Go events must be made avilable for the average players to win the $2,500 entry suggested for the WBT events.

As far as charity tournaments and events I have been running those for over twenty years now.

I'll tell you what is needed to make blackjack tournaments a success.

1. Casinos that first of all are willing to give us a chance to show that we can make these events profitable for them.

2. Prize money to get players interested in coming to play in them at a low enough entry to make it worth wide for the average player.

3. Satellite tournaments, either land base or online, even better both.

4. Players that are willing to go to all the tournaments and build up the events.

*NOTE:I understand that everyone can't go around to all the tournaments because they have jobs and or the expense. But several of you get up set when the same blackjack players are picked again for TV. These players are picked because they do or have gone to most of the tournaments for years and or written books, or have tried to support tournament play in one way or another. Once the tournaments get up and going it will open up for more players to get on TV. If you notice TV poker events use the same players over and over again on and "SUPER STARS OF POKER" use the same hand picked players over and over again. Russ even said that this years full WBT would be shot for TV in Oct., but it would be open for all next year on Kenny's radio show last week.

5. Standard rules and format for tournament play.

6. Need the casinos to allow everybody to play. Our numbers are too small to be excluding anyone from playing until we build a larger following.

7. Most important support from the players, without support it will never get off the ground.

We need everyone that wants tournaments to not only continue, but to be open to all and start thriving again to keep your fingers crossed that all these tournaments that we are trying to put together will work.

 

point of view

MONEY is the name of the game for both sides (casinos and participants).
I think that in Poker almost every entrant thinks that he is brilliant psychologist and bright player, so they don't mind to pay commission for the House. On the other hand BJ Tournaments seem really complicated for beginners and big entries are avoided as well as commissions (I don't mean high rollers). As a result casinos are not willing to held OPEN BJ Tourneys since they're not getting enough compensation.
To me, I would rather pay 'em up to 20% commission instead of giving action because BJ is dangerous, Video-Poker is boring and any other game (including Baccarat and Craps) is just wasting time on top of money (comparing with commissions). Unfortunately there are not enough players sharing my opinion, so there’s not gonna be enough motivation for casinos to held BJ Tourneys.

 

Field of Dreams

I disagree tirle_bj, I believe if we can build it (fuctional "OPEN" blackjack tournaments) that we will get the players to support them.

I do believe that to do so we cannot afford to just hold them in one location time after time. It is to hard for players to break away for the weekend to Las Vegas every month. It also would be very costly for those living out of state to try and make very many of them (unless they're winning).

To build up the number of tournament players we need to make the tournaments as convenient to the players (expecially the new players) as possible.

The number one reason I hear about a player or players not coming to a tournament is the expense, secondly the time. Now if we offered them a closer venue and took away the travel expense (or some anyway) and cut the amount of time they would have to be gone, then I feel we would get some new players.

Besides most of the Las Vegas players are retired to Vegas just to play so they could get away for these tournaments better then most of us. I'm sure I'll catch hell over that last comment...LOL, but it is true.

My suggestion is try to hold two open tournaments in six different areas of the country so that we expose tournament play to more players. How about this concept: Within the year we hold 2 tournaments in Tunica, MS, 2 in Reno, NV, 1 in St. Louis/1 in K.C., 2 in Biloxi, MS, 2 in Shreveport, LA, and 2 in Las Vegas. Then we could hold a big final event at one of the above casinos that is willing to sponsor the final event.

Sure the Vegas/Reno players will be at all on the ones in Nevada as will the Biloxi/Tunica players be at the ones in Mississippi. As they should be since most of the tournament players come from those states and let's not forget Texans that play a lot in both of those states.

*NOTE: Before I start getting posts about other locations, this is just an example of locations there is nothing planned. I am sure there would be lots of nice locations close to you that would be a great place to hold these tournaments, but first of all we need the casinos to go along with the idea.

Tournament fees would still need to be paid, but it might just be what the doctor ordered.

 

Money --- Its All About The Money

I was away at a tournament this last weekend and was surprised to see all the activity on this subject over that period of time. New ideas keep popping up all the time --- some are good, some are very good, and some are very bad. Well, I hate to be the bearer of bad new but all these ideas mean nothing because:
ITS ALL ABOUT THE MONEY

No, I'm not talking about prize money, entry fees, or freebies. I'm talking about CASINO PROFITS BEYOND THE TOURNAMENTS. If a casino cannot make a profit as a result of holding tournaments, why bother?

This last weekend I played a tournament at Kewadin Shores Casino - St. Ignace, Michigan (made the semi-finals but no money). A couple of weeks ago I played at the Stardust. In both tournaments, as soon as a player had no chance of any further advancement, he/she was generally gone as if a plague hit the place.

At the Stardust they came to the wild card drawing for the final table WITH BAGS PACKED. As soon as they saw that their names were not drawn, they were gone. Tuesday evening, the BJ tables were like a ghost town.

At Kewadin Shores the 1st round is played on Saturday and the rest of play is on Sunday. There are no wild cards. They even gave you $45.00 cash just to show up on Sunday and guess what. Most of the players that were eliminated on Saturday left that evening.

The Point? We (the bj tournament community) are simply not giving the casinos enough "live" action to make the tournaments worthwile. More and more casinos are viewing them as loosing propositions and therefore why bother. I personally have had many players tell me "I only come for the tournament, I don't bother with the blackjack tables".

Additional fees will not do the trick. It cost a lot to put on a tournament. You don't just pay a half dozen dealers minimum wage, create a prize pool and expect to have a tournament up and running. For all their time and expense they (the casinos) expect --- no, they WANT -- live action and they simply are not getting it.

I am getting very pessimistic about the future of blackjack tournaments. There are many good ideas posted on this forum about changes to the game but unless the casinos get more "live" action from the tournament players, there is simply no economic reason for the casinos to have tournaments and therefore they will die. As I said in the title of this post:
ITS ALL ABOUT THE MONEY --- ITS ALL ABOUT THE MONEY --- ITS ALL ABOUT THE MONEY

Now let me ask everyone a question. Please, I don't want to be deluged with answers, just answer this one question honestly to yourself:

If you owned a casino, would you run blackjack tournaments if the tournament players gave you little or no side action?​

I Know my answer: HELL NO!!!​

In my mind, I now understand why more and more casinos are having more and more invitational tournaments only. Although many on this forum understand this, the blackjack tournament players, in general, just don't get it. TXtourplayer is right: Quit moaning about lack of freebies and give the casinos what they want - ACTION. Then the freebies (and more tournaments) will come.

 

casino action

Between me and my wife we have left about $1000 at the tournament casinos each of our 5 trips last year. $500 entry fee and then lose $1000 is to much for me. If the casinos want more play then bring back 9/6 video poker and open more low limit BJ and crap tables. I'm not going to give that much away anymore. Let them charge a fee for the tournament to cover expenses. If the fee is fair I'll pay and play.

A lot of us play tournaments because there is little or no house edge. I don't mind giving up a slight edge on the tables. But they choose to have games where they have huge advantages. Look at 6/5 BJ, over 2%+ on most video poker, 2 deck and single deck BJ are usually high limit games. Weekend table limits raised. It goes on and on.

I ask myself the following question, "Why be smart enough to play tournaments and dumb enough to give it away at the tables?"

tgun

 

My answer toolman is YES!

Sure your going to have players that don't give you action and for that matter those the casinos don't want action from. However with charging for the rooms, food, and entry fees the casinos/hotels will be making a profit. Then throw in a tournament fee and those players who do give the casino action and it is a very sound business plan. You said it yourself, after the tournament was over it was like a ghost town!

I give the casinos action, but at the same time I won't sit there and lose $1,000.00 to get a $49.00 room or $12.00 buffet comp. I will however go to the casino willing to pay all those plus the tournament entry for an "Open" event with a big enough prize to make it worth my time and trouble to go too.
But that is me, thank goodness for the casinos that about 80% or better will lose their $1,000.00 plus a lot more.

If they have a smart business minded manager they would certainly know it is a lot better to get "A little something then a lot of nothing".

The players that don't give the casinos any action are still building up the tournament prize pool which will bring more players in that will give them action.

That is how they will get their MONEY, MONEY, MONEY as mentioned above. If they want to wait and go for the gold ring then I guess I'll wait for the next manager, because if their profits go down they will be looking for a new job. So if we can show them a way to make a profit a good manager should be willing to listen.

 

A little clearification

When I posted my last response, I was not saying that anyone should loose money at a casino just because they are playing in a tournament. I too feel that a $1,000 loss is substantial and I have lost that much and more on various trips. But I don't want to get into my personal gains and losses on this thread.

What I was trying to say is just give the hosting casino some action. If it turns out that the losses get to be more than exceeds one's comfort level, then stop playing. At least you tried.

I always play to win. I'm have no intention of loosing just because thay hosted a tournament. On my last tournament I won $700 playing "live" bj, then I stopped and took home the money. I gave them the action they wanted so their happy --- I think.

One little trick I use is to get 2 identical player cards. My wife uses one instead of getting her own. This way any action she gives is credited to me, helps keep the casino happy, and I get invited back. Besides, the comps are better if one person shows a lot of play as opposed to 2 people showing moderate play for each.

 

one card

If your wife is not planning on staying in the casino, alone or with her friends (without you), as a comped guest, then it is decisively better to use just one card.
Some casino used to allow two members of the family on one card but with the increased sophistication (and inrtusiveness) this is mostly gone.

On a similar note, if your action is significant (in the eyes of casino, they don't care what you think) once you have a big loss, leave it at that, don't chase it, guys. Firstly, you may not recoup it, and secondly, it looks better to have one loss and one win than two break even trips.

S. Yama