There have been a couple of references to "buying" things in a tournament, both in recent threads and online game chats and I wondered whether someone could explain the concept nice and slowly for me. In the "Worst bet in history..." thread Ken talked about buying the swing Also in a game at bet21.com tonight where I was in a tight spot on an elimination hand (acting early, 16vsD9, BRL) and Ken was acting after me (H18 I think) as well as 3 other players all with 20s, I surrendered. Ken suggested that I might have taken a secret action and stood (I actually didn't know that you could do secret actions without secret betting at bet21.com, D'oh!). This he told me would have "bought the dealer bust" since he wouldn't have known what I did and would have had to have surrendered. Let me take a stab at it. You can "buy" something in a tourney by betting and/or acting in such a way so as to ensure that if a specific outcome arises you will always benefit. Am I close? Cheers Reachy
That's it exactly Reachy. It's always helpful to know which dealer outcomes mean you will advance, or survive elimination. When you can make some sort of play to increase the dealer outcomes that work for you, you'll often hear it referring to as "buying" an out. An example: Player A: $25500 bets $500 is dealt hard 19. Player B: $25000 bets $5000 is dealt hard 20. Dealer shows a ten. Player A can surrender here to "buy" the dealer 20 outcome.
Looking for feedback Yesterday at Barona's invitational EBT, I was in Round 2, first elimination hand, with the following situation: I was low man - BR6; I trailed both BR5 and BR4 by $1,500. Minimum bet was $500; Max bet $25,000., in multiples of $500. I had $23,500. The two above me had $25,000. BR 1, 2, and 3 were way ahead. Hence, I knew I had to pass at least one of them by $1,500 or more. I had to bet first. As I was considering my options, BR4 put his bet out before he had to. He bet $4,000. Now, I chose to make my secret bet - I made it $6,000. BR5 bet last - $1,500. I was dealt an 18. BR4 was dealt a 17. BR5 was dealt a stiff. We all stood. Dealer had a stiff but drew to 21. In retrospect, had I gone for the low I'd have survived. Did I do wrong?
When you're unsure of whether to make a small bet or a large bet on an elimination hand, you should generally make the large bet. Often, your probability of surviving is fairly similar with either approach. However, if you win a large bet, you're in much better shape for the rest of the round. In this particular case, you could have taken the low with a $500 bet, and even if BR4 surrenders, you can surrender as well and have more unbet chips. That sounds pretty good, since BR4 will lose about 48% of the time. But, let's look at your chances by making a big bet... You'll win 44% of the time. Also, you are OK if you push while BR4 loses or surrenders his $4000 bet. I figure that's worth about another 4%, making the big bet and the small bet virtually equal in value. But, once the hand is over, you're in much better shape if you won the big bet. So, the big bet is a better choice. Now, how big? If you already are going to make a big enough bet that you'll need to win or push to survive, you may as well be paid as much as possible. I like going all-in here, and saving the secret bet. Once you've seen BR4's $4000 bet, you should cover his double down or blackjack possibilities, which means a bet of $10,000 or more is better than the $6000 choice. I like all-in.
2 pence For what it's worth, if I have a choice between high and low I'll take the low every time. BR4 bet too much to surrender back to the low so you could have locked them out of surrendering by betting the minimum and surrendering yourself (am I buying anything here Ken? Buying the surrender maybe ). Another option would be betting 4500 which could be doubled up to beat a single bet win by BR4 or surrendered back to the low buying BR4s loss. The most obvious choice is 2000 which takes the low and forces BR4 to win or push. Cheers Reachy
Feedback Thanks guys. Once again, that smooth and unarguable Ken Smith logic! I like your perspective too Reachy.
I hate it when that happens I write my response at the same time as Ken and of course he makes a lot more sense than me, but when I post it it looks like I've done it after him and made a pigs ear . I got it 1/2 right though... Cheers reachy
I was in the same game. Like you, Reachy, I did not know what a secret action is. Still confused after reading Ken's answer. Must be slow. What's the working of it? I would like to read more about this? Please, help? Ken, Joe, Fred, Dave...Where are you? :
If you don't initially make a secret bet, you can still decide in the middle of the hand to use your secret bet option to conceal an insurance amount, or a double-down amount, or to conceal whether you chose to stand or surrender. That's a secret action. FYI, Using your secret bet in this way still uses it up.
Archie, You're not alone when it comes to understanding the secret action button. But rest assured it is probably THE most powerful tool to be used when: 1. Entering a surrender trap 2. When you find yourself going first on a tiebreaker 3. When you are on the button in an eliminaiton hand and BRL I first thought it could only be used in conjunction with a secret bet only later to have someone "spring" it on me and totally take me by surprise. It does "eat up" your secret bet, however in those instances when you are BRL and going first into an elimination hand and you know you're forced to max bet I've found it to be very useful.
Sa F Interesting comments of the use of SA. Could you expand a little? I'd be interested to hear what you thougts are, especially in relation to the surrender trap. With the surrender trap, my understanding is that you can only fall into it if you make a small enough bet (take the low), and then whatever action you take has no affect on your outcome. How then would you use a secret action in this case? I can see the rationale for a secret bet as your opponent won't know whether you have sprung the trap or not. If you are the one setting the trap, once your victim has fallen for it they can't get out of it so long as you surrender, so a secret action has no benefit. A secret bet would defeat the purpose of the surrender trap as you want your opponent to take the low so they must see your bet. Could you explain your ideas in respect of the tiebreaker situation please? As for the 3rd point, I understand that one, from bitter experience . Cheers Reachy
I think what some players may be missing from this discussion, is the fact that BR1, 2 and 3 are, "way ahead", so that provides just cause for an all-in bet, as Ken stated. At some point you will need to be BR1 or 2 , and if you lose this hand you will be out anyway.
I was thinking that... When I re-read the original post I realised that as well. I thought it'd seem like I was backtracking if I said anymore in another post but now you've bought it up... Cheers Reachy
Clear and limpid now. Looks like a very powerful tool to get out of desperate situations. I'm surprised that I was not that much aware of it done to me after more than 320 games online. I remember vaguely, though , getting bad results unexpectedly without making the connection. It goes so fast that you don't have time to think before hearing the dreaded "Sorry,your are eliminated". Thank you Fred and Kenny for this useful info. Thank you Reachy for bringing it up.
What happens graphically if someone has an open bet and makes a secret action on bet21? What happens on the screen to show that the player may have stood and may have surrendered?
Good question. I can't recall how that is indicated. Whatever the case, it's probably subtle enough to be easily overlooked.
Live Don't they deal you a single card face down whether you surrender, stand, hit or double in live play? From what I understand it's different at bet21 though - you only get the card if you double, which to my mind means it's not entirely a secret action. If I'm correct that is... Cheers Reachy
OK, I just tried it on playubt. The secret Bet card moves from the outside of the table rim to the inside of the table (as it is when the secret bet is played). I guess that's reasonable, though still subtle. My preference would be to change the chips to the secret chip with the real bet in parentheses, as it is with your own secret bet.
