Chip count down poll?

Lately we have had several discussion on this site about when and how often to have a countdown in tournament play. Below I am going to post a poll for the members here to vote on what they would prefer the normal countdown be and how often.

Please pick one of the options from below.

NOTE: having a count before the last hand does cut out any cheating such as chip plaming.

 

Chip Count

I recently played a 30 hand tournament with a chip count after hands 25, 28 and 29 which were written down for all players at the table to observe and contest, if not contested it was considered the official count with no future objections. This is probably not the format to be used in a major tournament but maybe should be considered if more open tournaments are in the works to increase participation and help eliminate intimidation of the less skilled. 50 more players at $250 each is an additional $12,500 in the pot and the better skilled players still have an advantage for their hours spent developing those skills.

 

3rd option

Rookie that is the 3rd option listed on the poll.

 

How about a "no chips count, leave it up to the players to fend for themselves" option? I'd go for that.

 

Personal Preference VS Tournament Marketing

OK, so here we all get to vote on our preference for a tournament chip countdown policy. My vote: a count at 5 hands-to-go and before the final hand; I don't mind a count at 3 hands-to-go either; I wouldn't mind if they employed MindPlay-like software to keep a running display of everyone's chip count in full view of the players and observers.

One problem with not having enough chipcounts is that in addition to being a contest of card-playin' skill and mental calculatin' a tournament becomes an eye-test.
We have all probably had an encounter similar to one I had at a tournament in Laughlin some years ago. The player to my immediate right was a very old man with failing eyesight; he asked how many chips I had. I didn't tell him; after all I was playing for money wasn't I? He became crestfallen; he was very disappointed; his daughter (probably about my age) standing behind him told him that I didn't have to tell him; he replied it was a hell-of-a-way to play. It was. I felt bad. He felt bad. I'm guessing that he probably didn't enter many more tournaments after this incident. That's one less potential player for the tournament circuit.
This week I played a small weekly tournament. At the 5-hands-to-go countdown and every hand thereafter every player would cheerfully announce how many chips they had to whoever was looking at their stack. (And they told the truth, unlike that son-of-a-bitch playing against me a few years ago who offered to tell me and then lied! But I digress.) Y'know what; this tournament was a lot more fun because everyone was friendly.

If there were more chipcounts, and especially right before the final hand, there'd be more potential players; players with poorer eyesight would be less intimidated. And, although the "pro's" would resent this as "taking away one of their skills", they'd still show up anyway! Bottom line: more potential players.

(P.S. This goes beyond the chipcount question, but there is evidence out there that the players whom casinos invite to blackjack tournaments are intimidated by the presence of “tournament pro’s” at the contests. At least part of the Hilton’s problem was that they didn’t attract enough contestants to cover the prize pool. Anything which reduces the intimidation factor for the casual player can only help rectify this situation.)
(P.P.S. I have personally solved the eye-test problem by purchasing a pair of eyeglasses which focus between 2-feet and 6-feet, about the range of players’ chips at a blackjack table.)

 

I Have Changed My Mind

After playing numerous tournaments at Global-Player .com I now realize that the players that are asking for this giveback need this help .Even with the chip count being there for all the hands their results are still the same .So you know what it less work for me and more time to figure out the best way to play the hand and the best bet to make.So I say give it to them lets see if the player ranks swell.My guess is not 1 player more will be added but I dont want to be the one that prevented new players from coming in.My rice bowl will always be full because I always find a way to gain an edge.This will be another way to gain the edge more time for hand playing skills.Just as long as the next request is not to have coaches on the table's with the players after all we do have to draw a line in the sand somewhere.

 

Chip Count

Philly,
I agree, although 1 year ago I felt chip counting was a skill a player should possess if they wanted to play tournaments, my vision is no longer the same and although I now wear glasses I still can't accurately count chips 3 to 5 players away. Poor vision is not a lack of skill nor is BJ (or should'nt be) a game of physical well being but rather a mental game, there are other skills involved that will seperate the milk from the cream as joep indicated and the top players will continue to dominate even with additional chip counts in the last 5 hands, the big difference being a larger purse due to more players. Sorry to disagree joep but I have a friend that refuses to play tournaments for more than a $20 buy in because of his eyesight and he can't mentally keep track of 4 to 5 individual bankrolls plus bets made for 5 hands. I have to believe there are hundreds more like him spread across the US that would enter a $100 to $500 buy in tournament if they didn't feel disadvantaged by a physical weakness.

 

Hey, Joe.

Congratulations! You finally figured it out. Let the games begin and let's stop treating chip-counting skill as though it were quantum physics.

GM

 

GM You Missed the Whole Point

I didnt just figure it out.As a matter of fact there is not one doubt in my mind that your way will not be the best thing since sliced bread to happen to Blackjack Tournament attendance .

There is only one way to prove you wrong and it's to let you have it your way.You will see that its not about chip counting or eyesight or anything else you want to throw into the mix.It's called lack of dedication by you and others to learn this skill, but if this is what you need to attempt to level the playing field out be my guest.The only way to get the cream off the top is to shake the milk bottle .Shake away its more than chip counting.

The question really is will you be man enough to admit you were wrong when this does not work or will there be another skill removal request until it becomes a slot tournament and he or she that get the hot machine or (seat ) wins.

There is a list of over 50 players waiting to play at the Stardust every tournament,and they are turned down every time.The players are there its just the casinos that refuse to let them play.You want to know why these players are not allowed to play.Becaused they are considered skilled blackjack players.

Now I know you work for a on-line casino but I didn't realize that you also think like a land based casino .'Keep The Skill Out " let the suckers in.

 

More Countdowns!

I think more countdowns are a good thing. I knew someone years ago at Stardust Tournaments, who used a 'HIDE A GREEN CHIP OR TWO' strategy on all last five hand plays, whenever he had a large stack. I called it to PIT attention when I was at his table, but felt it was not my place to interfere, when watching the action. After a few years of trying, this player did win one. An OFFICIAL countdown before the last hand could have prevented this
from happening. After all; there was $100,000 at stake.
Sadly for JoeP, a before the last hand count, would negate his favorite strategy of changing down 2 $100 chips for 40 $5's, and betting $185 in red chips!!!!!! You've gotta love that kind of gamesmanship!

 

Taken Away

Norm thats part of the game that we no longer will be availabe to use if exact chips counts are supplied to the players . I'm glad that my last hand chip ploy kept you amused.You should use all tools that are made available to you in a tournament.

You use the clock better than any one I have ever seen .Your time used is not wasted as your crucial bets are right on the money and few mistakes are made, unless im sitting next to you and you and I are literally $1 dollar apart in totals and at one point it was a 50 cent difference.Yes at the Frontier you can bet in Dollar increments and Norm and I usually have classic battles between ourselves making like no one else is at the table.The battle is between us for 1 spot and the other 4 are playing for the other spot.Its a sight to be seen and I always enjoy the competition .

We we first started playing we figured out what skills were needed to become a better player than most.We worked on these skills and our results are the test of our ability.Now the new computer breed who has everything at their disposal wants to re-invent the wheel .Remember when there was 1 TV in the house and Dad decided what the family was going to watch,and you were his remote control.

Norm you and Kenny Smith and I will be standing in a corner watching a tournament at the newest casino in Las Vegas in 2010 when you will ask Kenny and I what is that guy saying to that player at the tournament table and we will inform you that is the players coach who has a computer printout of his opponets bets and hands played and they have called a time out to figure out what the best bet will be for the upcoming hand.Of course this will all be much easier for the coach as the scoreboard above the table has an exact chip count of all players and their pending bets.

Back in 2005 when Kenny Smith coined the saying "There is always a better bet".If he only knew what he should have said was after you call a time out check the scorboard for chip counts confer with your coach. Then you can say " Based upon all information supplied to me and my coach we believe this is the better bet".

They also might say who are those 3 Old Guys standing in the corner looking at us that way.You think they are with " Griffin Det.Agency "and they know we have unauthorized players info sheets and computer printouts.

Does anyone know Bob Nersesian phone # :laugh:

 

Joe, you never fail to amaze me. You appear to be laboring under the misconception that: A) I'm not able to count chips and/or B) that counting chips is such an incredible skill that only you and a handful of others can do it.

Let me set the record straight. Because of a (temporary) mobility problem, the vast majority of my tournament play is online - most of it at Global, of course, because of my 4+ years of association with the monthly GMO tourney.

But prior to that, I participated in monthly tournaments at Casino Station St. Charles and first had the pleasure of meeting Ken Smith at the tournament Bally's held in Tunica; I believe I played in three of those, not to mention weekly tourneys at Ameristar in St. Charles, which is where I first met "tgun".

If you go to the Blackjack page of my site, in the archives there you'll see an 8-part series entitled "Tournament Blackjack Training" in which I describe how I train for counting my opponents' chips at the table. I really can do it, Joe, really.

You and I both know chip-counting can be learned by anyone who has the desire to do so. But in reality, it's a skill that has no place in the "regular" game of Blackjack by anyone other than casino supervisory personnel. In my experience, and judging by the other posts here, it's an archaic part of tournaments that hinder others from joining.

Were I some sort of "tournament pro", I'd be bending over backwards to get more players involved. If styling the brick-and-mortar tournaments more like those online (or like those shown on "Celebrity Blackjack", as lame as it is) will get more participants, then it's a good deal.

Your test of this is whether or not more people will play because of this rule change and my comment on that is, it won't happen until the idea becomes widely known. If you do this at a tournament tomorrow, it isn't going to make the slightest difference, but that doesn't make it a bad idea.

I do not have a solution for your gripe with the casinos that won't let you and your friends play in their tournaments, other than restate what I've said previously: the "good old" days of 100% equity tournaments are coming to a close. You had a nice deal and now it's gone; that's life - we learn to move on, that's all. If you really knew me, you'd understand how ridiculous it is to compare me with a casino owner.

I know you believe your ability to count chips is what sets you apart from all us peons out here, but listen to me, Joe: It's not rocket science.

And on a personal note, Joe, I'm "man enough" for anything you care to toss at me and I do NOT work for any online casino, Global Player included. My income is from "advantage" play and my website.

GM

 

Playing to win

I am just trying to improve the playing conditions and possibly bring more players in or at least back to tournament blackjack. That is why I posted a poll to find out what the majority of players would prefer for counting down the chips.

As far as some of the above posts I can only comment on my style of play. I for one prefer more smaller value chips in front of me. I don't ask to color down unless I need to or if I need more time to act on my hand.

I have refused to color up before (which is my right) and I also try to get as many two-fifty or dollar and fifty cent chips (from Blackjack and or Surrender) as I can as well. Why? Because it is harder to count for the other players.

A few have heard commented before about those being cheap tricks, really?

Okay lets use baseball as an example: There's one out and a runner on second base and good hitter coming up in a tie game. The right thing to do is pitch around him, walk the good hitter and get to the weaker hitter and put on a possible double play. How about this: A tie game and no outs and a runner on first, the right play is to bunt him over to scoring position.

Example in football: Minute left in the game and your team is up by 2 points and the other team is out of timeouts. Your quarterback drops to a knee all three downs to run the clock out. Another example: Your up by 6 points with a minute left in the game, your inside your own 20 yard line and on 4th down your punter runs in the end zone for a safety.

Example in Basketball: You have a 3 point lead and foul the other team so they can only shoot two free throws.

Are all these cheap tricks? It is called GAME STRATEGY. You play to win the game and use whatever edge you have to do so as long as it is legally within the rules. You may not like it, you may disagree, but it is all part of winning playing strategy in every game played.

 

"INCREDIBLE SKILL" NOT

Your ability to be amazed must have a low threshold .How I amaze you is beyond me but how you misquote me is really what’s amazing. I ask you to show me or anyone else that is interested in this never ending pursuit of yours to distort the facts and miss quote me. Where have I ever said that chip counting is a “Incredible” skill .Looking for that quote should take you a while as I have never said that nor implied incredible and chip counting in the same sentence.

Yet you do tell me that on your web site where you do offer training advice, you spend time covering chip counting drills and practice. Why would you offer this service if it has no relevance to the outcome of a Blackjack Tournament.

It also looks like you need to be reminded that Blackjack Tournaments and “Regular” blackjack are 2 different entities .There is no need to count your opponents chips at a blackjack table you are not playing against him. The need to count chips in a tournament is a requirement if you want to give yourself an edge over the other players. You also imply that I believe that this “Incredible” skill is not easy to learn. I once again ask you to show me where I state that this skill that I have along with a lot of other players is for the most part unattainable to the average player.

If you were to look at the results of the poll you will see the majority of the votes do not agree with your side of this frivolous argument. Most votes are for some sort of countdown which I endorse but not for an exact rundown available on every hand.

Your reference to the “Good Old Days “is another smoke screen that seems to find its way on to all of your post .How is 100% equity or lack of them relevant to casinos not allowing players into their tournament .The Stardust Tournaments which is not even remotely close to 100% equity still has a list of players wanting to play in it but are turned down time after time

You also say that I refer to non counting chip players as peons. This is another assignment that I will give to you. Please find were I said that, again another smoke screen you are putting up trying to create to other readers my disdain for players who lack the ability to count chips .These task should keep you busy so we might not hear from you for a while .Drop us a note every now and then on your progress finding these statements.


p.s. I never compared you to a casino owner again another "mis quote" I said and I quote " I didn't realize that you think like a land based casino Keep the skill out let the suckers in ".

 

Last Hand Chip Ploy!

My prior message may not have been specific enough! My vote for Chip countdown is one prior to the last hand, in order to avoid mistakes in payoff, and to insure all players that no underhanded tricks or slight of hand will used against them. Another count can be made at the traditional 5th hand, or skip that and do it at the 3rd to the last.

In responce to Joep's mention of a "Last Hand Chip Ploy"; I would like to make it clear that there is nothing underhanded about it. It could not be more up front. Not only was it amusing, but it was another example of one person's inventive ability. Amazing in its simplicity!

 

Good Old Days

There really were 'good ole days', Gamemaster. The days when you played a single deck tournament round for two hours with a 10 minute break. Later, when we played 60 hand rounds. Today's reality of 30 and 20 hand rounds to compete for a Million, is not much of a competition. Look at the poker players. They play for days to make the final round of a big tournament. That is a competition! I am looking for good long tough matches again. Maybe, you prefer 15 hand showdowns, but the truth is that the cream rises to the top in these long poker matches. I would be happy to put up $10,000, like the poker players, and play one table of opponents for 4 or more hours with 10 minute breaks. Would you? Maybe, there just isn't enough interest to get something like this going, but if anyone would offer a similar format, many players just might step up to the plate.

 

Joe, I'm sure you'd rather see me go away as you suggested, but it's just not my style. That being the case, here are my responses, with your quotes marked in bold:

"Your ability to be amazed must have a low threshold. How I amaze you is beyond me but how you misquote me is really what’s amazing. I ask you to show me or anyone else that is interested in this never ending pursuit of yours to distort the facts and miss quote me. Where have I ever said that chip counting is a “Incredible” skill .Looking for that quote should take you a while as I have never said that nor implied incredible and chip counting in the same sentence."

While you may have never used the word "incredible", that's my take on how you feel about this. Call it poetic license if you wish. The fact is, there have been several times (the latest being in the chat room at Global on Wednesday) where you've made comments like, "GM and the others will be lost if they don't have the chip counts available" or words to that effect.
That very clearly implies chip-counting is something not everyone does and in my mind's eye you've elevated it to an exhalted status.

"Yet you do tell me that on your web site where you do offer training advice, you spend time covering chip counting drills and practice. Why would you offer this service if it has no relevance to the outcome of a Blackjack Tournament."

I teach it because it's required for many tournaments. That doesn't mean I agree with the concept, just that it exists.

"It also looks like you need to be reminded that Blackjack Tournaments and “Regular” blackjack are 2 different entities.There is no need to count your opponents chips at a blackjack table you are not playing against him."

No reminder needed, I've played some "cash games" in my life.

"The need to count chips in a tournament is a requirement if you want to give yourself an edge over the other players."

That's your side of the story wrapped up in one sentence and the sole basis of your argument, although you lately have seemed to realize that other skills are needed to win as well. You're certainly entitled to your opinion.

"You also imply that I believe that this “Incredible” skill is not easy to learn. I once again ask you to show me where I state that this skill that I have along with a lot of other players is for the most part unattainable to the average player."

Read your own posts; the implication is clear to me.

"If you were to look at the results of the poll you will see the majority of the votes do not agree with your side of this frivolous argument. Most votes are for some sort of countdown which I endorse but not for an exact rundown available on every hand."

I'm looking at them right now and it's 2 to 1 in favor of a change. Not my recommendation for change, but change nonetheless.

"Your reference to the “Good Old Days “is another smoke screen that seems to find its way on to all of your post .How is 100% equity or lack of them relevant to casinos not allowing players into their tournament .The Stardust Tournaments which is not even remotely close to 100% equity still has a list of players wanting to play in it but are turned down time after time."

I'm only responding to what you continue to repeat post after post. I will say this, though. If the Stardust doesn't want your business, go elsewhere. I hear there are other casinos in Vegas.


"You also say that I refer to non counting chip players as peons. This is another assignment that I will give to you. Please find were I said that, again another smoke screen you are putting up trying to create to other readers my disdain for players who lack the ability to count chips."

Not a smoke screen. The word "peon" was my choice and it's just my way of emphasizing your comment referred to above about "GM and the others will be lost if they don't have the chip counts available".

"These task should keep you busy so we might not hear from you for a while. Drop us a note every now and then on your progress finding these statements."

Sorry to disappoint you. Still here.


"p.s. I never compared you to a casino owner again another "mis quote" I said and I quote " I didn't realize that you think like a land based casino Keep the skill out let the suckers in ".

Saying I think like a casino owner is, by definition, comparing me with them. No mis-quote on my part.

GM

 

Hardest thing about chip counting is most tournments I go to have the damn plain sided chips instead of the striped ones. This makes it virtually impossible to get a perfect count. Even the tournaments at the grand have cheap chips. Why oh why can't they just get high quality striped chips?

 

Hello, Norm.

I'm with you on that - major tournaments should be many hours of play. I'm totally in favor of Blackjack-playing skill being the determining factor. I just don't think that chip-counting is a Blackjack skill.

Ken - I guess I'm naive, but hadn't thought of that. Another good reason for chip countdowns.

GM