ClubUBT changes 10K pay structure

More bad news IMO. They have diluted the pay structure of the only game you could win good money. I think the first place is down to 1 or 1.5k from 2.5k.

In the next few days I will be making a descision on whether to remain at the club. Of recent the customer service staff has shared my customer service message info with a consultant who has used the info to harm me and will not apologize, as of yet, even tho I have shown them others had same problem with their email service and the consultant is dead wrong. Along with other things like my chance to play Phil Hellmuth defaulted without apology and knowing the Club has 5000 players with such bad prizes Im getting ready to say C-YA. Not sure yet but think its time to not support this company. :sad:

 

I just checked as of Monday, January 7, 2008 2100 hours and first place is 1,000. Place 82-200 and you win $20 which is basically a "free month".

Since the tournament still pays 10,000 I don't feel there is anything wrong with making it less top heavy - paying first place 10% rather than the old 25%. IMHO this is a GOOD move as it gives more people a shot at more money.

Barney with regard to your e-mail correspondence being used by Joep - I read somewhat about that on a thread at LVA.com - yeah I agree that it was in poor taste but to "harm" you? Come on now get a grip.

Now your statement about being disappointed about not playing against Phil Hellmuth. This implies that to YOU playing against a "celebrity" is more important that actually winning the prize money $500. Why? Any AP player knows that when you odds go from 1 of 8 to 1 of 7 and the best player is eliminated it equates into better expected value.

Therefore if you were so concerned about making money, as you implied with the first portion of this post, you would have been elated that Phil was a no show.

I don't know how much money you've won from ClubUBT since playing but after winning a cruise package and some cash in a poker tournament I would venture to guess that the total winnings on Club UBT are MORE than you've won in live events - all for 19.99 a month.

Sorry Barney but I don't really believe you on this and would have to characterize your initial post as "sour grapes" over nothing. As I look at what you have won versus what you've paid out - not even leaving the comfort of your house, well things just don't add up.

 

Was that post a parody of yourself Barney ?

 

Let me be very clear here.

I do not like the prize structure change because I think I have a chance to win and will make a couple final tables per year. This is the main event for ClubUBT. It should pay heavy to winner.

I considered playing Phil as good as winning the 500$. I play very few BTP freerolls and he was a target. He screwed me. Hollywooddave would also be a target. I was not happy Phil didnt show. I am actually very angry he didnt show and nothing was said by the company.

I have done well at club UBT after signing up late. That will not change my stance on feeling harmed by someone calling me a liar for something I was not lying about. I consider it bottom barrel business to hand a consultant my message info that was then used to call me a liar on public forum. It comes down to reputation. It doesnt matter that the person calling me a liar is known to be scattered. IM not they type to be bought off for 50$ during a boycott, I require real action like apology.


JMO, this cant be argued. If you want to look in the mirror and chat away.

 

I'll not voice an opinion about the prize structure change since I can't play there, but Barney's got a huge point about his messages being given to someone who then used that information to publicly slander him.

 

I totally agree. It's one thing to provide an employee or consultant with some information on a customer, but to go public with the information (whether the info is correct or wrong) on a public message board is another thing. And, doubly troubling is that when said employee/consultant cannot show 100% proof that what he has posted is accurate, and there's evidence that he is 100% wrong, a public apology from both the employee AND the company should have been forthcoming immediately.

But then again, when have we seen the ubt, club or any of its officers, investors, employees or consultants ever issue an apology for anything?

Fred pretty much boycotted bet21 because their business practices were not ethical. Same here. Barney has every right to say what he's saying, and to stop his membership with the club at any time. He also has the right, as Fred did, to "stick it to the man" by taking as much investment dollars from the club and its investors as he can -- IF HE SO CHOOSES -- as Fred decided to do months after his boycott.

Customers and members do not have to offer apologies nor explanations for their actions. Companies (whether private or public) and their officers should be held to a higher standard -- ESPECIALLY when they've done something that smacks of being unethical and illegal (calling someone a liar based on faulty information and going public with it).

The trouble with the club and the ubt is that they have still not sent an "official" representative to their two main audiences -- this forum and the lva forum. How much more efficient it would be if they did, so questions that Barney and others raise on both forums can be answered professionally, accurately, without name calling and accusations.

Yeah, "club ubt rocks." Too bad the people behind it just stand behind those rocks, or send one rep to throw rocks at anyone who dares come near it.

 

Ted,

I understand you comments and I happen to agree with you regarding them. In fact any company that refuses to listen to their clients/customers will not be around in the long run - we've seen that happen in the past with other businesses and poor CS.

I have two questions for you:

1. If an employee/consultant for Publix supermarket does something really dumb and stupid and pisses you off do you stop shopping at Publix and switch to Sweetbay or Winn Dixie? If so who loses?

2. Back to the original topic of this thread - the changes in payout of a $10,000 event. Under the older system the payout was 2,500 for first place (25% of the prize pool) to now 1,000 (10% of the prize pool). Is this "fair" and is it good business sense?

 

The 10k game was paying cash to top 50 but paid points to top 10% or so. With maybe 90% of players winning free rolls with an average of just over 100 TPs paid thats a good grab. You pay at least 100 TPs and get back 2000. Not to say thats easy but its still a good payout in TPs. The way the prize structure has been rearranged now pays $1000 to first place and this is fighting thru over 1000 players. I say thats way too low. I guess they could make a point to pay the top 10% cash like, correct me if Im wrong pokernut, the entire 10 grand. I cant remember how many players were in last 10k game I think participation had fallen to 1300 not sure, so the money would go to top 130.

Interesting, with Dr Truth saying the Club has 5000 members why do so few play this big game? Things that make you say hmmmm?

 

Fred, I'll answer your first question in this post:

1. First off, I give Publix huge kudos for having a policy to go out of their way to hire physically- and mentally-challenged people. Since moving to Florida eight years ago, when it comes to mainstream supermarkets, Publix has gotten about 95% of my business. I had an incident where one of the baggers did a really really bad job. Normally, I don't mind a semi-bad job, but this was horrendous. So I walked over to the manager and politely showed him what I was left with as far as my the grocery bags. He apologized and offered to rebag them for me. We both rebagged them and he told me that the bagger was new and that she would be retrained.

So based on the professional response and action I received from the manager, I continue to shop at that Publix along with other Publix supermarkets near my home and my travels. Had the manager said, "Get over it, it's just a few grocery bags," or "We just hired her, so take what you got," I would have never returned to that Publix, but would have continued to shop at the other locations.

If Publix as a corporation would issue a policy that makes no sense (let's say, all parking spots within 200 feet of the store are now reserved for law enforcement officers, pregnant women, and the handicapped), I would consider my alternatives.

I've learned over the years through reading business magazines, from my own personal experiences, and through my career, that customer service goes a LONG way in having a successful business. Here are some examples:

. About 15 or 20 years ago, I got my contacts in the mail through Lens Express. One time, I didn't get my regularly scheduled shipment of lenses and called the firm. They said FedEx delivered them. I said, I never got it and I never signed for them. They said, we don't require a signature. Okay. How about a compromise, I suggested. You ship me another batch "at cost" -- so you don't lose, and I don't lose the entire amount. They said they can't do that. Fine. That day I ordered my lenses from 1-800-contacts. Guess what? Lens Express no longer exists. When you key in lensexpress.com on the web, you go directly to 1-800-contacts. For the $25-35 it would have cost them to reship another package at cost, they lost a customer who may have been worth thousands of dollars in future business.

. I received a shirt for my birthday many years ago from my then wife. It didn't fit and I didn't like the style. We went back to the mall to exchange it. Problem is, I didn't like anything else in the store. So I asked for a refund. Oops, the manager said. It's past our 10-day return policy. I said, my wife bought this for me weeks ago to save for my birthday. The manager didn't budge. I asked politely again to no avail. I actually said to him, "What happened to the customer is always right?" He said, "Not in this case." I said, "With an attitude like that, I doubt you'll be in business come my next birthday." The store was gone within six months.

. Now take Nordstrom. I believe we've all heard the story about a guy who returns the four tires he "thought" he bought there. Guess what? The Nordstrom store took them from him and gave him a refund. I believe Nordstrom has received such positive press on this kind of story (there are many others), that the miniscule amount they've paid in undeserved refunds, has come back to generate them millions.

. One last example: My branch manager got up in front of her 100 colleagues during a sales meeting last year. She said she had to share this customer service story. She and her husband went to one of their favorite Naples restaurants the other day. Her husband orders the tuna, as he usually does when it's on the menu. A few minutes later, the waitress comes back and apologizes that they're out of tuna. So he orders another kind of fish. When the meal is over, the manager comes over and says their entire meal is free. Why? He said it was because as regular customers, they deserved to have their regular meal, especially when it's on the menu. The restaurant messed up so it was on them. Does this make sense? Did the couple complain? Would they have never come back because they were out of tuna? Of course they would continue to eat there. But, as the manager knew, good publicity is the name of the game for most businesses -- especially the competitive restaurant business in Naples. So what happens, my branch manager gets to tell 100 people about her experience. I have told this story to at least half a dozen people -- and now a lot more on this forum. The $100 comped meal, that probably cost the restaurant $40, has probably generated thousands of dollars in sales since last year. You bet that couple returns with their friends as often as they can. Oh, the restaurant is Tommy Bahama.

As for bad service, if you have a monoploy as most cable companies do in most areas (Comcast in mine), you can get away with bad service and even worse customer service, since you may be the only choice or game in town. Sure, some customers can switch to a satellite dish, or a slower internet service provider, but condo and apartment owners cannot get a dish.

Compare all the above with what we've gotten with the ubt and club ubt. The club pretty much has a monopoly on their style of gaming. You either play on their site and their terms, or you simply make the choice to not become a member or renew your membership. However, unlike other monopolies like Comcast, the club is new, looking to build a following, and is not yet profitable. So they, of all entities, need to treat their customers like the Nordstroms of the world. But they don't.

Just as you, Fred, and I, did with bet21 -- even though we felt they were an unethical firm with zero communication and PR skills, we decided to play there because it truly was the only game in town. We decided that the people running the site were incompetent, so why not take advantage of that. As long as we weren't getting hurt overall in the long run, we could still play there. Using the Publix example, if the manager had told me to bug off, if they were the only supermarket that carried the chocolate bar I loved, then I may still go there -- but just for the chocolate. Same with bet21.

So if Barney decides that he will benefit from playing at the club, and its his way of "sticking it to the man" by winning the investors' dollars, that's fine. However, if there were 10 other clubs in town with similar games, I'm sure he'd take his business elsewhere. Just as we would have with bet21.

I will reiterate this again here, since I believe this is the crux of all the misinformation, animosity and attacks surrounding the club and the ubt. Had they sent an official representative -- a manager, customer service rep, etc. -- to this forum and the lva forum (and I'm sure Ken and Anthony would have given them their own header), they would have been more successful, more profitable, and more respected. Heck, this site has over 9,000 potential members and the lva site probably has just as many. Imagine a thread where a clububt rep announces this month's new prizes, explains the 2-week trial period, offers special discounts, answers questions and concerns professionally, and provides an official explanation or apology when glitches happen (i.e., Phil Helmuth not showing up for a beat the pro tny). This would also prevent accusations and name-calling (i.e., liar) by unofficial reps of the club, since Barney could have asked the official rep of the club right here on this forum, what is happening with his payment.

And just as with the Tommy Bahama example above, when readers of these forums would see that the club is taking care of its members' concerns, they may decide to give the club a shot. As opposed to the readers on the lva forum who are turned away by all the name-calling, misinformation, and "we don't care about our players" attitude that is ever-present there. The club will never know how many more paying members they could have attracted with simply having a professional and official rep post on these forums.

I'll reply to your second question in another post.

 

Freakin' awesome post, Ted. Too bad the intended targets won't pay a lick of attention to it, especially the last two paragraphs. :cry:

 

Fred, since I have played on the club only a minimal amount of late, I'm not sure of the exact total prize structure under the older system compared to the newer system. So I can't comment on the value of the prizes or whether the change is fair.

But I can answer your question on whether it's good business sense. As I stated in my previous post -- and on numerous other posts -- it's all about open and honest communication. With the way the club made the change, you get player confusion, player upset, and player concern. Sure, there are probably many players -- maybe even most -- who simply don't care. They'll play in anything the club throws at them, without thinking about the time invested for the payoff. But from what I've read today on this and the lva forum, there are players who have said they don't like the new change referenced above, nor the amount of low value tournaments that take 3 hours to play. All these changes would have been easier for EVERYONE to swallow and understand and accept had the Club made an official announcement. And I don't mean here. I mean right on their website and on the club ubt opening page. Heck, they have all their members' email addresses, why not send an email blast explaining what the changes are and why they've made them. And while I'm on the subject, why not send an email blast every month -- including to past-club members -- outlining all the prizes and showing that, in fact, there are over $100,000 worth of prizes to be won that month. Simple and easy, and basic marketing 101.

And if there was a legitimate rep from the club on this site, they would have just learned about this technique and how to keep your customers -- your paying customers -- well informed. I don't have anything at stake in the club, and will probably be canceling my membership next month, so I could care less about sending these and other ideas to them. And while I originally hoped the club would succeed for the betterment of ebj, knowing how one of their major investors has treated me and others these last few months, I actually could care less about the club's success. Selfish and revenegful? You betcha! If the club fails and the investors lose their cash, they'll have no one to blame but themselves and their poor business, marketing, and communication practices. Sure, they'll blame me and the few others who have brought up valid points and actually tried to help early on, but we're not the reason they haven't gotten close to being profitable as yet.

BTW: How does the UBT model (not the club UBT model) actually make money by holding tournaments at casinos? Do the casinos have to pay the UBT a fee for using their format? If so, why would any casino do this if they can simply hold a standard old format tournament? If the UBT made money off their TV shows, how will they replace that money if they lost their contract with CBS? I understand that casinos and tournament operators like Rick make their money off of tournament entry fees. Plus casinos get the side action. But where exactly will the money come from in future land-based ebj tournaments? I'm not being sarcastic nor putting them down. I'm simply curious about the business model, if anyone can shed some light on this.

 

Ted, your answers go above and beyond anything that I had expected and I thank you for taking the time for such in depth replies. To both of your answers my only response is AMEN!

It is my personal opinion that when any company has a monopoly that CS becomes nothing more than a side thought – unless said company stakes their name and reputation as a CS organization – definitely NOT one of UBT’s trademarks.

With regard to the change in the payout structure(s) over at ClubUBT: I like your idea about how the change could/should have been announced. An e-mail blast is a great idea as it could be used as a marketing tool as well. Communication – well remember when you run a subscription site it really is in Club UBT’s BEST interest to not keep members informed and updated if all they want to do is collect monthly subscription fees. Hopefully people forget and they continue to rake in the 19.99 a month. While that may not seem like a lot over 3,000 to 4,000 players – 60 to 80K a month is nothing to sneeze at.

Regarding the personal behavior issues that you raise – I totally understand and as someone who has received my fair share of unwarranted barbs (and warranted too!) it is unnecessary and for many is incentive enough to close the door forever.

This is an interesting subject and I think we can all agree that anything we write would be speculation. Of the several ways in which EBJ could be used as a money maker to me I believe they were counting on the licensing of the game, similar to other games that are patented and trademarked.

If this were the case they’ve made a huge mis-step in my opinion because there really isn’t a huge demand for their product. Therefore why would any casino hold an EBJ tournament and pay an extra fee versus hosting a traditional BJT?

Another possible thought is to use EBJ and the show, UBT, as a vehicle for certain players/investors to market themselves, gain exposure and ultimately sponsors – similar to what has occurred in poker. Once again if this was the intention I believe it has failed miserably as evidenced by CBS dropping the show.

Finally a case could be made that money was to be made from players actually playing the game online, ie., Bet21.com spin off. Thanks to UIGEA that possible offshoot was and is underperforming hopes – as evidence by diminished play at Bet21 (personal observation)

 

Ted, another great post - intelligent, well thought out, and with the ring of professional knowledge behind it. Problem is, as I see it, that you're preaching to the choir because the intended audience has left the building. They ain't listening. You, Fred, myself, and others have tried in the past to help them avoid making really boneheaded PR mistakes to no avail, other than our being verbally attacked for merely having the audacity to speak up with anything even slightly anti-UBT. The secret elimination of the Cruise-A-Day idea isn't close to their worst PR blunder, it's just part of a list that might be headed by the failure to immediately disclose the cancellation of the Barona TOC with a number of related blunders immediately following.

At the risk of being hung in effigy "over there", I'll toss out another idea related to your email blast suggestion. One group says the severe reduction in anticipated win-a-cruise tournaments is a very undesirable development. Another group says that it's what the typical Club member wants - more little bitty tournaments. OK - so send out an email to all current Club subscribers with a link to an online survey. Ask a number of questions besides the one about the cruises, i.e. fewer tournaments for more money vs. more tournaments for less money.

Then, when finished setting that up, send out another set of emails - this time, to all former Club members with a link to a slightly different online survey. Ask 'em why they didn't renew or join up after the free trial. Ask 'em what would get them to come back. Offer 'em another 2 free weeks just for taking the time to fully answer. Good grief, there is an awesome focus group right at hand, by email, which could provide unbeatable (and nearly free) information about why folks don't stick with it. Of course, it would inundate them with negative feedback, and we all know how well they respond to that.

 

Personally I think the cruise is a bad prize. There is a huge cost on top of the package so many players dont want it. Plus a lot of people dont like ocean adventures. I think if ClubUBT would have put a cruise a day it would have ticked off a solid majority of players.

If ClubUBT would seal the lips of the talking heads and keep their potential promos under wraps it would be good. The "cruise a day" was a slip of the lip. Pre-mature lipilation maybe. Management over there needs to tighten ship. This is a good product.

 

Fred, Leftnut, thanks for your nice comments, feedback and ideas. They're really appreciated.

Barney, I have to disagree with you. If the cruise was a bad prize, what accounts for the 100+ or 200+ entrants to each of the cruise tournaments? That tells me that there are at least 100 players who would pay the extra expense to fly or drive to Miami for the cruise. Remember, everything is paid for -- taxes, port charges, main tournament entry AND gratuities. On a cruise, that means you don't have to pay for anything else but alcoholic drinks, sodas, and excursions at the various ports. So these expenses can be kept to a minimum for the frugal traveler/player.

I personally think this is a good prize because the winner is getting the actual value of the prize, unlike the watch or some of the other merchandise up for grabs.

 

So what is it????

The cruise package (not cruise because it includes two (2) passengers AND entry to a poker and EBJ tournament) is a very good prize and one of the main reasons that MANY players, included myself, signed up for Club UBT.

$10 and $20 tourney prizes, Club UBT tray holders, tents, kayaks, etc., are/were crappy prizes.

The removal of the cruise a day promotion is sad but that's what happens when a business has to adapt to their revenue stream and the current environment.

 

Gotta disagree with you too, Barney. Obviously some folks think the cruise packages are a great prize - look at some of the posts by pinklady here. It's just a matter of taste and individual desireability for the prizes, that's all - although I don't think Fred will get too many arguments over THIS statement:

 

I would be amazed if the cruise was truly wanted by more than 200 players at the Club. It has been said the Club has 5000 players but I bet its more like 1700. So, if you cruise a day for a month there will be loads of people without any worth while games like 1000 shopping spree. If they are keeping the 100K$/month pay a cruise a day will decimate the schedule. Maybe someone could ask PHBob or MikeAceKodame what the chatter is. I just know cruises and watches are bad prizes from my point of view.

Still, if ClubUBT had not handed people bad info regarding a POTENTIAL promotion this would be a mute point. As long as the Club is paying 100K$ in cash and prizes things should be OK. BUT talking heads got ClubUBT in trouble, again.

BTW, travel expenses for me to get to Miami, stay in Miami, have some frugal fun at ports, gambling BR of about a grand also covering second tourney, and booze was about 3 grand. By selling my cruise I actually made about $4250 lol.

 

ClubUBT player ticker is stagnant at best Ive never seen it over 1500 and that was a 10K poker game a couple months or more back. Maybe they arent doing any advertising like exposing the Club to college kids. Maybe the prizes are just too bad for anyone to want to pay 20 bucks. If I were in charge at the Club I would pound the prizes like IPod touch, TVs, $1000 shopping sprees at stores like Best Buy, gaming systems, puters you name it. Whatever the Club is doing now isnt cutting it. I predict big changes in the prizes and prize structures. If they dont get the player ticker to uptick soon this party wont last.

 

For what it's worth, I don't think the Cruise-a-day promotion was just something that slipped out. It's true that it wasn't posted on the website, but I think Joe and Mace were supposed to let people know that this was coming. Keep in mind that back in August, ClubUBT was loaded with crappy prizes like $5,000 watches, inflatable kayaks, etc. The cruise was one of those thigs I'd actually imagine paying for, so it definitely had an effect in convincing me to join.

When the sh*t hit the fan in November and December, they had to cancel it. But since it was never official, they figured it would just go away.