Creating the Ideal Blackjack Tournament

If you could create the ideal BJT for YOU. What would it be?

Questions to ask yourself are:

1. Location
2. Prize pool – now while bigger is obviously better bigger also means higher entry fees so…
3. Entry fees – what do you feel comfortable as a fee and what is the MOST you would pay for a BJT?
4. Vig – How much “extra” should it cost before you decide you won’t pay? For example with #’s 3 & 4 are you a 100+10 person, a 100+5 or 100+20?
5. Number of rounds you’d have to play in
6. Number of other players – just general here. Do you like small BJT (under 50) medium sized 51-100 or large 200+?

These are just starting points and I’m sure with the experience and mind power on this site we can come up with plenty more.

 

Ideal BJT

Location - For me, it ideally would be local, which is the Chicago area. I think you want a well-populated area, but not a traditional gambling hotspot. The quality of play would be notoriously low there. Small casinos just can't support big money tournaments, while places like Las Vegas probably have tougher fields. Though the LVC strip is my second choice.

Entry Fees - At this point, it's got to be enough to justify the travel expense, though not overly expensive. $1000-$1500 sounds like the right amount. Having satellites the night before is a good idea to let people enter for $250. I also think that the casino should aggresively offer comps, as long as they add the money to the prize pool. Having large fields of comped players may cause bad players to make the final table more often, but it's good for the game.

Style - I really think that the UBT is doing things right. It definitely would have to be an elimination-style tournament. I could live with or without surender. The betting range needs to be at least 50x from min to max bet. Max bet should be equal to starting stack.

Vig - 10% or less. I like the idea of a guarantee. You can also charge me for dealer tips at 3% of buy-in. The only thing that really concerns me with the UBT format is that putting an internet qualifier at the final table basically adds 14% to the vig. Since the internet qualifier is a UBT Promotion, the value of the prize should be paid out of pocket by UBT by adding 14% to the final table prize pool. As it is, the UBT is offering a prize paid for entirely by the paying players. Either that or discontinue the free final table seat.

Size of tournament - No real opinion, though rounds should always have at least 2 advance. Bigger tournaments are likely to have more bad players, and are better. However, tournaments with fields over 200 should pay about 1% per semifinalist to the semifinal players.

Length of tournament - A tournament should run in one day, with a possible final table on the next day. Registration should always be available the morning of the tournament.

---------------

I think that the Venetian Classic was a great design of a tournament, for the most part. They had satellites the night before, ran the whole tounament on Saturday, etc. They met most of my criteriaThere were only a few problems I had:

- I thought Round 1 was silly. They advanced 3 of 6, with the losers getting in a second chance round where they advanced another 3 of 6. Therefore, Round 1 only went from 113 players to 90 players. In fact, the eventual champion actually lost her 1st round match. If they insist on a "second chance" round (not an awful idea), they should only pass 2 players out of each round.

- The final internet player that I discussed earlier.

- The Venetian seemed to handle tips poorly. With the final table well removed from the Venetian pit and no money taken out of entry fees to compensate the dealers, there was a very awkward tipping situation. Noone asked for tips after the final table and there was no concept that the people you were giving money to knew that you were giving it to them. I think, given the situation, that taking 3% out for the dealers seemed right, assuming that further tipping wouldn't be expected.

 

When

UBT reared its arrogant head we heard how 2500+$ tourneys would fill to 400. Nope. We saw Barona lower the entry fee from 500 to near 250. We saw Venetian circuit event lower to near 1000. 1000 is still too high. The most you can ask for a tourney is about 500 and even that will get you a low player participation. I think the best way to draw in players is to have the total of buy in plus rebuys equal about 500. Even our TBT this weekend will scare players away at 300 plus chance for two rebuys. I think a tourney of 250$ plus two rebuys is a good tool to draw in about 100-150 players paying 10% on initial buy in is good. If the casino is to guarantee the pool bring in an equal number of invites and offer them rebuys to build into pool. Maximum number of rounds 4 or 5.

 

Buy-in fees are largely location dependent.

Examples:

1) Horseshoe-Tunica in April, 2007 held a $1,000 buy-in event and it was full with 250 participants. Granted that some were comped in but with a first place prize of $100,000, a waiting list existed.

2) Majestic Star in Gary, Indiana tried to host a $100,000 tournament last fall. The entry fee was either $100 or $200 and included 2 nights at the hotel. Result: Canceled due to lack of players.

3) The Ho-Chunk in Wisconsin tried to host 3 WSOB satellites over about a 2 month period. Entry fee was $400. The big plus was that if you won the first round you get back the $400. They provided for a little over 100 players per satellite. The first satellite had about 20 people sign up and the others were less. Result: Canceled do to lack of players.

My conclusion:
Entry fees need to be sized according to type of players a particular casino/location attracts. There is no one size fits all.

 

Ideal Tournament...

I thought this was kind of a strange thread to start given the general acceptance of Rick's TBJPA rules and format.

Rick's rules are pretty much ideal. I would make only one change, and that would be to add a "mulligan" chip.

Other than that, TBJPA locations are a problem. Laughlin is a nice place, except it's so friggin hard to get to. Chicago would be disaster. Hotel rooms are typically 4-5 times more expensive than Las Vegas.

Vegas is ideal in terms of transportation, lodging and meal cost. Eventually, Rick will find a casino hotel there to host most if not all of his events.

 

Barney - I'm not trying to point out mistakes that have been made (I'm not calling it a mistake)

What I'd like to see in what YOU, as a player would like.

Toolman's post about the fees being site dependant is a very big factor that I think really needs to be considered. I agree with him that "one size fits all" won't work.

This isn't about who's tournament is best or who's tournament isn't - I was hoping to read opinions from experienced players.

 

Would most people actually prefer playing a standard tournament to an elimination tournament? I would think not, at least for anyone that has any experience with elimination tournaments. The only reason not to have elimination tournaments (in my opinion) is that UBT would want to charge for the format.

As for Chicago, I wasn't arguing for it as a location per se for the TBJPA. The casinos in Illinois have way too restrictive state regulations to support tournament BJ. There are no casinos in downtown Chicago, where the hotels are expensive. However, the Majestic Star in Gary has been interested in running BJ tournaments (not always successfully) and may be interested in bringing someone else in like Rick to run the tournaments for them.

 

Fredguy,

As I've said before this wasn't to "knock" one set of rules versus another.

For example the mulligan chip you mention - that is unique to the Hilton (as far as I know)

In addition you have to realize there are LOTS of newer members who join all the time. Just because we've done something the same way time after time doesn't mean that it's the BEST way.

Newer ideas, or bringing ideas back from the past. Whatever it takes to get a formula where having BJT benefits us, the players, and them, the casinos.

I mean lets face it we, the players need the casinos and they, the casinos, need us players. So why not work together?

P.S. I'm also trying to get to the elusive 2,000 post too!

 

The problem with trying to come up with an "ideal" blackjack tournament is that every gambler and every casino has a different definition of what ideal is.

For individual gamblers, ideal varies based upon all of the characteristics mentioned:

- Location - where a person lives and where they like to go is different.
- Cost to enter - differs for everyone based upon how much money they have and whether or not they gamble at a level where they will be comped into the tournament.
- Rules - a person's skill level determines what rules they prefer. For example, a novice would like few hands to be played per round, rebuys, power chips/mulligans, free ace hands, high max bet limits. The novice prefers a wild tournament with lots of big swings in bankrolls based upon luck. An experienced person would like the opposite.

For individual casinos, ideal varies based upon their marketing strategy and who their current and desired customers are. Tournaments are either a success or a failure for a casino based upon whether they are appropriate for their customer base and match the desires of their customers. If a tournament is full, then the casino has done a good job of understanding their customers. If a tournament fails, it is because the casino didn't understand their customers and offered them something that they didn't want.

Given all of that, I can only say here what would be an ideal tournament for me:

- Held in Las Vegas
- $250,000 to $500,000 in overall prize money
- Comped entry for gamblers with the appropriate history of play
- 75 to 150 max entrants
- No purchased entries allowed (since this usually attracts other experienced players)
- No free registration with the anticipation of future play (because the future play often doesn't happen and this just allows deadbeats to take a free shot at the prize money)
- Semifinalists get paid
- First prize doesn't hog the majority of the money
- 2 or 3 advance per round
- No rebuys
- No gimmicks (elimination hands, free ace hands, power chips/mulligans)

I could also define how to fix the $1M tournament for the Hilton, but at this point, it doesn't matter. They have already blown their reputation by cutting prize money after the tournament started. Anything that they could do at this point would not be trusted. Their tournament is failing and they really now would find it hard to offer a better one next year, since they have betrayed their customers and lost their trust. They seem to have forgotten the one simple truth about casino success/failure. That is, no casino has ever closed because they offered gambling and tournaments that were too good for the customers and didn't win enough money for the casino; casinos only close because customers decide to quit coming through the front door for various reasons (poor table game odds, too tight slots, poor tournaments & promo offers, poor & unfriendly service).

If I owned a casino, what would I do? This question is so easy, I can't believe that casinos don't do this. The answer is simply to create a survey and ask your customers. Once you know what they want, whether they all want the same thing or whether there are two or three distinct groups that want different things, you design it and offer it to them. Can you imagine how happy you would be if a casino asked for your input on what tournaments you would like and then offered you something very similar to what you suggested?

 

Would most people actually prefer playing a standard tournament to an elimination tournament? I would think not, at least for anyone that has any experience with elimination tournaments. The only reason not to have elimination tournaments (in my opinion) is that UBT would want to charge for the format.

I both have, and probably will again, travel and pay up to $2500 to play in a traditional table elimination game. However I would not go next door to play a UBT elimination for $100. I have much experience playing on line and am relatively successful, but I hate them and only play them because that is all there is. I would never play them in a casino.

 

Disagree.

Uh, this is another way of saying "invitation only".




fgk42:
Good luck in your quest for "2000". I think you can make it by the end of the week. Just send the Mrs. shopping. :joker:

 

The Best Tournament Question Ever In My Opinion

Well, I have to say I really appreciate you bringing up the topic. Hopefully, my own opinion will spark an interest with some additional feedback.

1. Location: Location, location, location. If you glance at the last issue of Hig Roller Magazine, then you will see that California is one of the most richest states with casinos. That being said, it would be very Ideal to hold an tournament at San Manuel Casino. The reason being? Just because this is the nearest real(closest you're going to get) to a Vegas based casino to the Los Angeles metropolatin area. I mean, The Hustler that you guys see that's down in Los Angeles, including Hollywood Park do not offer slots period. Oh, by the way, please watch out for uproar that's going to occur tonight in Garden Grove. There is a proposal to build a(n) Indian Based Casino in the city. There will be a townhouse meeting tonight and it is supposed to be rocking with supports and non-supporters of this formation. Can't wait. I might even go. It saddens me that one of the most media driven towns in the world doesn't have close access to Vegas-based casinos with slots. Do you know how much revenue it would bring to the city of Los Angeles? That's not including jobs. I just don't understand why anybody in these forums has not made a big fuss about Los Angeles. Face it people. Los Angeles is a known city everywhere I go in the country and people want to just visit it to see what it is like. I just don't get the politics of many corrupt legislators and a Governor that hasn't passed a budget yet.

2. Prize pool-$8,000-$10,000.00 based off the number of entrants with the amount of the entrance fees based below. This is just an estimation you all.

3. Entry Fee-I really can't speculate how much this would be, but I could see a $100-$250.00 entrance fee. The re-buy would be in the range of maybe $80.00. I would love this format.

4. Vig- I would say to this when you get to for example $50.00 more on the entry and you don't just have the money based off the position.

5. Rounds- I think this is the best part. Rounds. I would say play three rounds. Round robin that goes to the semifinal. Then, the semifinals. Lastly, the finals. This speeds up the action in my opinion. I've been on playUBT.com and I feel like I'm playing poker. Blackjack is a more controlled and steady game. You get two or three cards at most and move on to the next hand. I would implement fifteen hands per round. We eleminate players at hand five, ten, and fifteen.

6. General. I like the 51-100 player range of players because sitting around between rounds I don't like. This minimizes the time people that are waiting for the next round to start. I don't want to have to wonder can I go get something to eat or not. Let's minmize the time between the rounds for everyone that is waiting. You shouldn't have to wait three hours without knowing when the next round starts versus a person that just finished his round and their off to the semifinals right away. That's not fair to the person that just finished and has to go their table right away. My point, just give us some time to recoup our time, but don't have the players that are waiting wait more than thirty minutes between the rounds.

 

When Are We Going To Meet?

Totally agree Barney Stone. I could've predicted that same outcome as well. Great post. When are we going to meet sir? We actually live closer than you think.

 

One More Comment

I have read all of your responses and they are wonderful. However, I just have to be personal about something people: MONEY AND PEOPLE. It wouldn't be wrong to say that I know of many blackjack players that are wonderful tournament players, but they've told me that they just don't have the money to drive all the way to Las Vegas to lose or re-buy and the total trip will cost them nearly a $1,500.00 to cross state lines. Many of them say why go to Las Vegas when we have Casinos in our own backyards? It really touches my heart that people I know that I know and the beautiful people on this site kick my but everyday at the geme. There are so many people that play this game that have untapped tournament potential and can't do it because they just don't have access to certain Casinos and this cite because they just can't afford it. We should(not have to) look at the human factor of all this. Excuse my un-Godly language people. Hell, I know some good card players, yet they don't even know about this cite because they don't own personal computers to access the internet, which enables them to access this cite. I just have a deep compassion for those that just don't get the opportunity we do. We should get the word out on this cite and I do that every opportunity I get. I love all of you guys. Take care.

 

best tournaments

I agree with most of Fredguy's post. I'm not sure about the mulligan because I've not played were it was offered and also it would add an additional luck factor.
I believe that Mississippi's gulf coast and Tunica are great locations for tournaments. KC might be good they have 3 or 4 weekly tournaments at present.
Also, those that played at Tulsa had a great time playing 7 days of tournaments. I great Bang for those travel dollars.


tgun

 

Mulligan card

Actually tgun, the mulligan card tends to increase the skill factor.
Just like rebuys mitigate an unlucky round, the mulligan mitigates an unlucky card.
And there is skill involved in when to use the mulligan.

 

While I understand that some of the more "experienced" BJT players don't like the mulligan I look at it as a powerful tool - nothing more and nothing less.

When used properly it can be very powerful or when misused can be useless.

Rebuys - I REALLY prefer them because I have to travel whenever I find a BJT so without a rebuy it sucks to spend all the $ traveling and not have that second chance.

As far as the "imaginary Ace" trick - that I DON'T like because all it does is promote wild, go for it behaviour from all players at the table. So I'll pass on the Ace thing.

 

My Personal Choices:

Location: Since I don’t live near a casino really anywhere I go for a BJT I have to travel. The less the better. However hosting MULTIPLE events is good, in my opinion. My preferred casino destination is in the NE but they don’t have any BJT there so I’ve found myself branching out.

Prize pool – now while bigger is obviously better bigger also means higher entry fees and thereby limits certain players. Since I have very high travel expenses I have found that I limit my participation to events where the prize pool is 50K or more.

Entry fees – This varies for people but for me I don’t mind putting out if I see the potential payoff. While I was willing to play in a 10,000 16-person event I can’t see paying 10,000 for a 1,000,000 winner takes all event with over 150 people. Crazy? Yeah.

Vig – This is where I will part ways with the experienced players and pro players. I don’t mind paying a vig if the event is good and other factors work out. I mean poker players ALWAYS pay vig for their events. It’s a part of the game. The problem is that too many BJ players have, in my opinion, gotten spoiled with the invite events that they no longer want to pay for the house to host the event.

Number of rounds you’d have to play in. The reason I asked this is because I prefer the 2 advance format. Getting to the semi-final table, getting down to the last 2 players and losing it on a bad hand – been there and it SUCKS! However with 1 person advances format there are less rounds and it goes quicker

Number of other players – I don’t mind how many there are but I guess I prefer a smaller number because with 300 or more you’re standing around all day waiting to play (unless you have 20 tables going)

Oh another preference - playing at an event where the other players keep their clothes on and don't kick the furniture! :laugh:

 

Hilarious

LMAO. I am rolling over here fgk42. Man, that last statement about the players keeping their clothes on is hilarious. To add to your above statement. I agree with every single thing you said. The advancing two as what happened Monday night with Kristiane and the other young man is a great idea. Let's give that so-called underdog as many opportunities to share in some of those winnings. Wow bro.... I am so upset and feel your pain about not having any casinos to go to locally. I commend you because just you showing up in certain tournaments, as I have seen you accomplish before, is pure determination in itself. My hats off to you. The entire waiting around gets to me also. Let's go and enjoy our winnings. One think I am witnessing more and more you all is that the pot is not going all to the first place contestant. At times, I've even seen in some big tournaments contestants are cashing all the way up to 30th place. Now, that is great. It's almost like the Borona promotion where if you lose $100.00 they reimbursement you in say comps/buffet.....Hit here fgk42. I'm feeling your pain though. Where is TXtour?.....I want to really hear him and Ken Smith's take on this. Step up guys and let your voice be heard...Peace....

 

Mulligan?

Fredguy mentioned the Mulligan in his post.

I have never been able to get my head around this so went back to search and review the previous posts about this on here.

So Joe Pane hates it, Rick Jensen does not like it but has offered it up to his tournament players if they vote for it, and our Ken will play in a Mulligan tournament providing he has been given advance notice.

Can someone for the novices on here please explain in plain English what exactly is the Mulligan about?

Andy