Got to LV today. All tables (except in high limit room with min. $100) are either Continuous Shuffle Machines (CSM) or single deck paying 5:6 at the LV Hilton. No shoes, no double deck. Those coming down for the WSOB qualifiers are in for a very rude awakening. Tables without the CSM are open only on weekends. The change was made just before New Year's. Complain when you get there. I did. If enough complain maybe they'll listen. I was told they have received many complaints so far. Dealers don't like it either. Players winning less so dealers get less tips. The good news is that they still have some 9/6 J.O.B. in the Sports Book area.
It's true... Thrasht and I walked around the Las Vegas Hilton today and NO DD games or even shoe games anywhere in the regular pit's, (I didn't checkout the high limit room).
So Tool: What does that do to your play to play theory? Yes, the 9-6 is good. But how can you give some one side action on games like that. Let alone the 200-400 per hour? Everywhere the BJ game is being squeezed. Cause the majority are conventionaires or partyers, or High Rollers. Who don't know, or care. So, you go to the VP, or find a way to play one of the other table games, just to get a BJ invite. Or, only play the straight up buy-in tourneys. Fewer and farther inbetween, but more reasonable.
donkey Please humour me since, as you know, my BJ play is almost exclusively in cyberspace, but how does one complain about a CSM? How does the use of them affect non-counters and does making a fuss about casinios using them not mark you out as a potential AP even if you aren't one? And what the hell 9/6 J.O.B.???? Cheers An Ignoramous AKA Reachy
CSM's and JOB's CSM's (continuous shuffle machines) make it impossible for card counters to get an advantage. They have an adverse impact on flat bettors, too. The dealer deals a few hands out of them and then feeds the discards back into the machine. It's nearly a theoretical infinite deck. 9/6 JOB (jacks or better) is considered full pay. The full house pays 9 times your bet and the flush pays six times your bet. It's hard to find outside of Vegas and they're growing more or more scarce in Vegas too. If you play according to basic strategy you cut the house edge to under 0.6% and can get an advantage play if you factor in comps, etc.
Not so bad? Thanks MS. I realise why CSMs are not good for APers since they render all/most AP plays useless, and that is my point. If you complain to the casino that they are using CSM's are you not telling them that you are an AP? Mind you what would they care since you can no longer beat them. Or can you...? I just did a little research and according the The Wizard of Odds the house advantage for a CSM game is LESS than hand held/shoe games!!!!!! So it in fact benefits BS players. Code: CSM reduction in House Edge Number Reduction of Decks 1 0.11% 2 0.06% 4 0.03% 5 0.03% 6 0.02% 8 0.01% http://wizardofodds.com/blackjack/appendix10.html Of course that must be tempered by the fact that there are more hands dealt per hour and therefore hourly loss rate will increase. Cheers Reachy PS. Still don't know what a 9/6 JOB is despite your explanation !!!!
You Should Complain Toolman was right to complain about it. CSM's suck even if you aren't an AP. I'll have to check that wizard of odds data. I thought conventional wizdom had it that the more decks you have the bigger the house edge and CSM's almost deal from a theoretical infinite deck. 9/6 jacks is video poker in which a pair of jacks or higher is a push. No wild cards or bonuses. Full houses pay 9:1 and flushes pay 6:1. The payouts for the other hands are usually pretty standard. A royal flush with a max bet of five units pays 4,000 units. Dollar 9/6 jacks is a good way to get comps and stuff.
theoretical infinite deck always bugged me when this is part of a tournament teaser because most, actually all, live BJT games I have played are not from an infinite deck or CSM. Every card out in a single deck game,for example, has a big impact on the percentage rates of plays. Im wondering, a basic strat isnt set in stone during a flow of cards from 1-8 decks because of the cards out impact hand over hand. Wouldnt the mathematical standard basic strat sheets be even more true from a CSM because you never discard clumps too far out of a full shoe?
wizard table No because the table you refer to does not state the house advantage but the reduction of the house advantage. So if the house edge is 0.50% by the rules, it would be 0.50% - 0.11% = 0.39% for 1 deck and 0.50% - 0.01% = 0.49% for 8 decks.
flogging the expired equine MonkeyS - I still can't see why, for a player who only uses basic strategy, CSM's are so bad, except for the fact that since you play more hands/hour your hourly loss rate goes up. From what Toolman has said previously I take it that he is a BS player in regular BJ, and so I'm genuinely curious as to what his, or any pure BS players objection to CSMs is. If I said to the casino "I really don't like your CSMs, you should get rid of them" and they say "Why don't you like our CSMs?" what should I say? Don't get me wrong, I don't approve of them. Thanks for the more detailed explanation of 9/6 JOB. Now here's a question; how do you play video poker? (I was going to ask this question the other day actually) Barney - I use dealer outcome tables that correspond to the correct number of decks in use when calculating tourney teasers. Also unless we know the exact composition of the deck we can't be exact in our calculations. However in most situations the differences in the outcomes are great enough that the slight error of approximating to an infinite deck won't effect the answer. If anybody posts a question about single or double deck TBJ I haven't seen it yet, and I guess they'd say if it was. Cheers Reachy
I'm not sure I understand If CSMs reduce the house advantage then the house advantage is less with CSMs vs shoes. Am I missing something? Follow the link and read the piece, it gives a rationale. Cheers Reachy
The best way to complain about CSM is to refuse to play them... But not b4 noting to the pit that you do not trust machine dealt cards. Tell them you are going over to XYZ casino where they deal a fair game. If there are any XYZ casinos left to play.
Their Loss Bummer for the Hilton. They've lost my business at the blackjack tables during the week. I might possibly play this weekend if they open up some shoe games, but I should continue my boycott out of general principal. Rando is correct when he says don't play them. I also don't play games that pay 6:5 on bj's. Of course never say never. I did sit down at a single deck 6:5 game and flat bet $10 until I got my suited blackjack to get my free entry into the bj tourney in May. It took me about 80-90 hands to get one. I colored up and walked away $100 up so can't complain too much though it does hurt getting paid 6:5 on those bj's. The boycott is back on, but now I feel like a cheap used-up blackjack tournament whore. lol
Hilton I hope to get some play at the Hilton the third week of Feb. I want to qualify for the suited BJ tourney and also work on a membership. If I have to hold my nose and play CSM's or 6:5 I guess I will. Reach if you're interested in VP there's excellent material available online. You can get strategy cards and practice software from Ken Smith's online store.
More Hands, Less Down Time Reachy, In theory the BS player is playing more hands per hour because of it. (no down time for shuffling) If you know as a BS player you have a certain "loss" rate (house edge), you should play at a full, slowly dealt hand shuffled game. The house is going to do whatever they can to increase that loss rate. If you could increase the hourly win rate by 30-50%, wouldn't it be worth it to you as the house? I think the best reply to your question would be that you "just don't trust them. I've lost too many times went I've played against them." I hear it all the time. I mean, if the ploppy thinks my taking surrender will ruin the flow of carts for the rest of the shoe, how far fetched whould the CMS comment be? Dan
Fair enough! So it's really a question of efficiency. CSMs are good for the casino on 2 fronts. Firstly they increase hourly hand rate which increases the rate of loss. Secondly they prevent AP's from playing their game. Boo, down with CSMs!!!!! :flame: Do you foresee a time when all casinos will use CSMs exclusively and how would it effect the game? Cheers Reachy
There once was a time....... Toolman, I once read an interesting article on the original CSM, which were 4 deck. "Wong was one of the first to beat the Continuous Shuffle Machines (CSM's). When the first generation of Continuos Shufflers were introduced at the Mirage, two teams of professional card-counters, one led by Stanford Wong, beat the casinos, making off with tens of thousands of dollars before the casino removed the machines. Needless to say refinements have been made to the Continuous Shuffle Machines since then. Many believe they are still beatable, however, if you learn their shuffle patterns." I can't find the link right now to the actual article but I believe the flaw was in the latency period of the dealt cards getting back into the "shuffle". The teams, playing at a very high rate of speed, could have a good two decks, or more out at anyone time. I once experimented with a "rolling" count and playing heads up I could get a fair amount of cards of the machine which was a five decker. They eventually started holding up play so that the machine could catch up. It was an interesting adventure. Pill
Originally Posted by Reachy If CSMs reduce the house advantage then the house advantage is less with CSMs vs shoes. Am I missing something? Is it a fact that CSM's reduce house advantage??? I dont think so.... There is no way dealing from an infinite deck reduces their advantage... It does speed up the number of hands per hour... The camparison with a ploppy complaining about a surrender ruining the flow of cards seems like a red herring to me... Sounds like something a pit boss might say in defense of reduced odds. Now with all that said... I won my largest single sitting amount ever while playing at a CSM dealt game ...just goofing off... Hit a run that lasted about 4 hours where nothing I did was wrong... meanwhile players to the left and right were dropping like flies.... Got the weekend comped...as well as lobster and steak dinners each night...fine wine included.... So do I return to tempt fate again??? No way. The regualr BJ game is being forced into extinction...they want you playing machines....less overhead. Id like to see the numbers that show CSM reduce house advantage... Anyone???
Wizard Rando If you'd like to check The Wizard of Odds website(http://wizardofodds.com/blackjack/appendix10.html) you'll see that it is true that a CSM has reduced house odds compared to a non-CSM game. I was suprised too but who am I to question The Great Wizard? Follow the link and find fault if you can. As I said before, CSMs appear to benefit the casino because they stop APers from doing their thang and increase hourly hand rate and therefore the house hourly income. Cheers Reachy
