Double Down Card
- Thread starter fgk42
- Start date
Reachy
New Member
Either or
Don't really have a preference. It does change the game dynamic though but I hope that, for the sake of diversity, there remains games with both options available. What about this - a game where the DD card is dealt up by default but you can pay an extra non-returnable fee to have it dealt down? That just came into my head and I have not put any thought into it at all...
Cheers
Reachy
Don't really have a preference. It does change the game dynamic though but I hope that, for the sake of diversity, there remains games with both options available. What about this - a game where the DD card is dealt up by default but you can pay an extra non-returnable fee to have it dealt down? That just came into my head and I have not put any thought into it at all...
Cheers
Reachy
fgk42
New Member
My thoughts on the subject
The role of the double down card in Tourney play
Doubling Down is a powerful tool in BJ tourney play. The premises is very simple you get an opportunity to double your initial bet if your win. The catch is you only receive a single card in exchange for the opportunity to “double” your bet.
In conventional BJ play against the house it rarely, if ever, makes sense to double for less. After all, the intention of this procedure is to make additional money so why waste the opportunity. Nevertheless many people in the B&M casinos routinely do not double for the entire amount or neglect to double at all.
In TBJ, however, there are other reasons to “double down”, hereafter referred to as DD. Since the goal of TBJ is to advance and to best your opponents the act of DD takes a more strategic outlook. The question is what valuable role does DD play when the card is dealt face up versus down. Does it change the value of the move?
In “old fashioned” conventional BJT the use of DD resulted in a single card face up. In this instance it is my opinion that it should be treated as a method to maximize the chips, to overtake the other players and to be used conservatively. Why? Let me provide an example:
BR2 is 3000 chips behind BR1 and bets first. Their bet is 2000 and BR1 bets 500. If BR2 is dealt an 11 and doubles down for a total of 4000 and receive a 10 it forces BR1 to DD also in order to maintain a lead (or in this case tie). However, if BR2 is dealt a 2-5 and the dealer has a 7-10 showing BR1 need not DD knowing that it is most likely that BR2 will lose the hand.
Now, let us take the same situation but instead of the DD card being dealt face up it is dealt down. In this instance BR1 has no clue what BR2’s hand is. At this point BR1 has to do some quick calculations to determine the risk to reward ratio of DD.
[NOTE: I did not include the mathematics here because this is more of a hypothetical issue and I want to discuss the pros and cons of the techniques of DD as it relates to EBJ]
DD for less is a good technique, especially in the EH’s. This allows players the opportunity to “correct” a sub-optimal bet, or to make up some lost ground. This technique blends itself ideally when the hand is less than optimal, for instance a 9 vs. dealers 2 or 3. While any DD in this case is a violation of BS in BJ tourney play this can be a very good resource, pending what your initial bet and opponents bets are. For example
BR1 20,000 bets 3,000
BR2 15,000 bets 2,500
Dealer shows 3
BR1 has 13 and stands
BR2 has 12
In this case a DD for 2500 is very aggressive and has the risk of busting out. However a DD for 500 allows for a correlation with BR1.
[NOTE: The above is not an optimal example of DFL but the only one that I could think of off the top of my head. Please feel free to provide better examples]
Other uses of DD would be to “hide” ones hand from the opponents, especially when betting 1 or 2 on the button. This is a new technique that was not effective in “old-fashioned” BJT. However, for a simple 500 chip this can be very effective.
Now the reason I bring this topic to life is that when you DD and the card is face down it doesn’t increase the variance (the card is the same whether it is up or down), however, what it does change is the psychology of the players who must then play AFTER the DD is dealt.
It is my personal opinion that this in effect “enhances” the tourney game in the sense that I like to use the DD card in my arsenal, however when it is done AGAINST me it really sucks! The question is does it detract from the BJT experience of increase the level of skill required to handle these situations?
The role of the double down card in Tourney play
Doubling Down is a powerful tool in BJ tourney play. The premises is very simple you get an opportunity to double your initial bet if your win. The catch is you only receive a single card in exchange for the opportunity to “double” your bet.
In conventional BJ play against the house it rarely, if ever, makes sense to double for less. After all, the intention of this procedure is to make additional money so why waste the opportunity. Nevertheless many people in the B&M casinos routinely do not double for the entire amount or neglect to double at all.
In TBJ, however, there are other reasons to “double down”, hereafter referred to as DD. Since the goal of TBJ is to advance and to best your opponents the act of DD takes a more strategic outlook. The question is what valuable role does DD play when the card is dealt face up versus down. Does it change the value of the move?
In “old fashioned” conventional BJT the use of DD resulted in a single card face up. In this instance it is my opinion that it should be treated as a method to maximize the chips, to overtake the other players and to be used conservatively. Why? Let me provide an example:
BR2 is 3000 chips behind BR1 and bets first. Their bet is 2000 and BR1 bets 500. If BR2 is dealt an 11 and doubles down for a total of 4000 and receive a 10 it forces BR1 to DD also in order to maintain a lead (or in this case tie). However, if BR2 is dealt a 2-5 and the dealer has a 7-10 showing BR1 need not DD knowing that it is most likely that BR2 will lose the hand.
Now, let us take the same situation but instead of the DD card being dealt face up it is dealt down. In this instance BR1 has no clue what BR2’s hand is. At this point BR1 has to do some quick calculations to determine the risk to reward ratio of DD.
[NOTE: I did not include the mathematics here because this is more of a hypothetical issue and I want to discuss the pros and cons of the techniques of DD as it relates to EBJ]
DD for less is a good technique, especially in the EH’s. This allows players the opportunity to “correct” a sub-optimal bet, or to make up some lost ground. This technique blends itself ideally when the hand is less than optimal, for instance a 9 vs. dealers 2 or 3. While any DD in this case is a violation of BS in BJ tourney play this can be a very good resource, pending what your initial bet and opponents bets are. For example
BR1 20,000 bets 3,000
BR2 15,000 bets 2,500
Dealer shows 3
BR1 has 13 and stands
BR2 has 12
In this case a DD for 2500 is very aggressive and has the risk of busting out. However a DD for 500 allows for a correlation with BR1.
[NOTE: The above is not an optimal example of DFL but the only one that I could think of off the top of my head. Please feel free to provide better examples]
Other uses of DD would be to “hide” ones hand from the opponents, especially when betting 1 or 2 on the button. This is a new technique that was not effective in “old-fashioned” BJT. However, for a simple 500 chip this can be very effective.
Now the reason I bring this topic to life is that when you DD and the card is face down it doesn’t increase the variance (the card is the same whether it is up or down), however, what it does change is the psychology of the players who must then play AFTER the DD is dealt.
It is my personal opinion that this in effect “enhances” the tourney game in the sense that I like to use the DD card in my arsenal, however when it is done AGAINST me it really sucks! The question is does it detract from the BJT experience of increase the level of skill required to handle these situations?
TXtourplayer
Executive Member
I perfer down, but...
From most of my tournament surveys over the years, the majority of the players prefer up.
I have learned that these polls (BJT.com) don't give an accurate account of what the players really want. In most cases there are less than 25 players who even vote. I find by asking players at live events to fill out surveys I get a better feel of what the players want.
Now I have been told that several of the players in the surveys are not tournament players. Maybe they are not "Pro's", but they are tournament players or they wouldn't be in the tournament. What we all need to remember is the seasoned tournaments players will attend the tournaments the newbies and occasional players are the ones we need to try and attract, they are the ones who make or break a tournament, they are the majority of players in most every tournament.
In all my tournaments I deal the DD's face up for two reasons:
1) The one I already mentioned, it is what the majority of players prefer.
2) When dealing the DD card up you can't accidentally expose the card and have any problems such as players complaining about the card being exposed or having to burn that card and getting another. Those are an unnecessary problem that can be avoided by dealing the card up.
Now for TV, I think the DD’s is being dealt down makes it more exciting to watch. It adds extra suspense to the out come of the hand.
From most of my tournament surveys over the years, the majority of the players prefer up.
I have learned that these polls (BJT.com) don't give an accurate account of what the players really want. In most cases there are less than 25 players who even vote. I find by asking players at live events to fill out surveys I get a better feel of what the players want.
Now I have been told that several of the players in the surveys are not tournament players. Maybe they are not "Pro's", but they are tournament players or they wouldn't be in the tournament. What we all need to remember is the seasoned tournaments players will attend the tournaments the newbies and occasional players are the ones we need to try and attract, they are the ones who make or break a tournament, they are the majority of players in most every tournament.
In all my tournaments I deal the DD's face up for two reasons:
1) The one I already mentioned, it is what the majority of players prefer.
2) When dealing the DD card up you can't accidentally expose the card and have any problems such as players complaining about the card being exposed or having to burn that card and getting another. Those are an unnecessary problem that can be avoided by dealing the card up.
Now for TV, I think the DD’s is being dealt down makes it more exciting to watch. It adds extra suspense to the out come of the hand.
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Down if..
Down if the hand cannot be busted by the DD card, but exposed if the hand busts. I do not think it is fair for the action of a DD to force improper strategy by following players if the hand is busted. Have the dealer check the down DD card in much the same way they used to check for tens or aces before the mirrors. Expose the card if it busts the hand. (i'Ve been in one casino's tourney's that do this and it is great, especially when someone doubles on hard 19, the dealer checks, and then places the card down{in play}.)
Down if the hand cannot be busted by the DD card, but exposed if the hand busts. I do not think it is fair for the action of a DD to force improper strategy by following players if the hand is busted. Have the dealer check the down DD card in much the same way they used to check for tens or aces before the mirrors. Expose the card if it busts the hand. (i'Ve been in one casino's tourney's that do this and it is great, especially when someone doubles on hard 19, the dealer checks, and then places the card down{in play}.)
RKuczek
Member
great discussion
I prefer it up - but sometimes really like having it down - up provides all players with more information upon which to make decisions - down hides information - if you benefit from information - you want it up - if you benefit from concealing information from other players - you want it down - I think most experienced players can adjust their play to take advantage of either situation - but probably benefit more from having more info available - as they will use it better -
great discussion of the impact of 'strategic' consideratins on hand play - doubling to match another player's bet etc. -
just letting you all know your comments here are being appreciated
I think bringing 'strategic' considerations into your hand play decisions is a very big skill factor - even though actual use may be fairly rare - when it helps - it is a very good tool to have -
I prefer it up - but sometimes really like having it down - up provides all players with more information upon which to make decisions - down hides information - if you benefit from information - you want it up - if you benefit from concealing information from other players - you want it down - I think most experienced players can adjust their play to take advantage of either situation - but probably benefit more from having more info available - as they will use it better -
great discussion of the impact of 'strategic' consideratins on hand play - doubling to match another player's bet etc. -
just letting you all know your comments here are being appreciated
I think bringing 'strategic' considerations into your hand play decisions is a very big skill factor - even though actual use may be fairly rare - when it helps - it is a very good tool to have -
fgk42
New Member
Stretch,
I respectfully disagree with you about down vs. up in your example. Why?
1. It would eliminate the use of the DD card as a strategy to blocking my opponents from knowing what I've done.
Here's an example that happened to me yesterday
I'm BRL bet max 25,000 get dealt a 14 dealer has an 8 showing. I need to DD to have a shot so I DD for a total of 25,000+13,000=38,000 (I'm all in)
BR1 had bet enough to cover my 25,000. Since I DD on a 14 and the dealer had an 8 showing they stayed on their soft 18. The dealer turned an Ace for 19 - I pulled a 6 for a total of 20 - swing and I take BR1 and advance.
In your scenario BR1 would have realized that I may not have busted and may have dd for less - in any scenario it would have changed the way the game was played.
Second problem is that anytime the dealer looks at a card it open the possibility of someone seeing the card based on ther seat position. Is that cheating? Ah.....a topic for another thread!
TXtourplayer
Executive Member
Bottomline
The bottom line is if we are going to play in a BJ tournament it doesn't matter if the DD's are up or down. That isn't going to make a difference as to whether we play in the tournament or not.
As long as the rules for DD's are the same for everyone it isn't that big of a deal either way.
The bottom line is if we are going to play in a BJ tournament it doesn't matter if the DD's are up or down. That isn't going to make a difference as to whether we play in the tournament or not.
As long as the rules for DD's are the same for everyone it isn't that big of a deal either way.
London Colin
Top Member
Fred,
The scenario you describe is something that will randomly happen to all players equally - you need to double and you benefit from having the outcome hidden. As such, I'd say it is neither a good nor a bad thing.
The true benefit will come from finding and exploiting situations in which you can choose to double (usually for less) when you normally would not. If you do this and others do not, then you gain an advantage in the long run.
The scenario you describe is something that will randomly happen to all players equally - you need to double and you benefit from having the outcome hidden. As such, I'd say it is neither a good nor a bad thing.
The true benefit will come from finding and exploiting situations in which you can choose to double (usually for less) when you normally would not. If you do this and others do not, then you gain an advantage in the long run.
fgk42
New Member
London,
Your point is taken. My purpose of giving that example was NOT to say that I strategically used the DD card to my advantage. I DD because I HAD to. The difference that I was trying to point out to stretch was that BR1 had to “assume” that I had bust (as evidenced by their staying) if the DD card was placed up then BR1, who was going behind me, would have known that they needed to DD. That was my point in using that as an example.
I remember many times playing at Global and the person in front of me had needed to DD on the final hand to have a chance. When I observed that they busted it simplified my decision process. In essence it is my hypothesis that the DD down card minimized the effect of button position, if the person knows how to play it.
I know this may seem trivial but if you can identify any situation where you can gain ANY advantage, then I want to discover it and, hone it, refine and utilize it to MY advantage - after all I can't program percentage tables like our other "Blackjacksoft members" :laugh:
London Colin
Top Member
Slight confusion
I think we essentially agree, but ....
My point was that you don't gain any overall advantage from the face-down DD card unless you vary your strategy in some way to exploit it. Otherwise, for every occasion on which you benefit from its effect, there will be a corresponding occasion when the roles are reversed.
So the difference that you were pointing out to stretch seems like a bit of a red herring. It hurts you as often as it helps you (unless, for some reason, you find yourself acting first a disproportionate amount of the time).
I didn't vote in the poll. I like the face-down DD as part of the overall UBT package, but I don't think it can be evaluated in isolation. I'm not sure I would want face-down DDs without the ability to DD for less. The secret bet is another factor, but I don't think that is as important.
I think we essentially agree, but ....
My point was that you don't gain any overall advantage from the face-down DD card unless you vary your strategy in some way to exploit it. Otherwise, for every occasion on which you benefit from its effect, there will be a corresponding occasion when the roles are reversed.
So the difference that you were pointing out to stretch seems like a bit of a red herring. It hurts you as often as it helps you (unless, for some reason, you find yourself acting first a disproportionate amount of the time).
I didn't vote in the poll. I like the face-down DD as part of the overall UBT package, but I don't think it can be evaluated in isolation. I'm not sure I would want face-down DDs without the ability to DD for less. The secret bet is another factor, but I don't think that is as important.
fgk42
New Member
Clarification?
Agreed. I know that there are special strategic times that I use the DD card because it “masks” my result, only in combination with DFL
Not a red herring at all. I apologize for my lack of communication skills. My point in the prior example (which had recently happened so it was fresh – it was NOT a good example) is that when the DD card is unknown it introduces a whole new set of numbers into the equation. As a person who writes those showboating programs let me give this a shot:
Let’s assume final or even EH ok?
A player who is BRL or BRL+1 DD’s on a stiff in an attempt to overcome the other players.
Now the other players betting next have to figure out what the probability of the DD on the stiff is and how that relates to the probability of BRL winning versus losing. In the past the result was evident and obvious and eliminated that uncertainty. Red herring – I don’t think so. Uncertainty factor introduced? Absolutely
Good point that I hadn’t considered. I “assumed” that the DD could be for less. My underlying reason for asking the question is to find out how TBJ players feel about the introduction of “variance” or do they view it as a possible “tool” in their arsenal?
London Colin said:
Agreed. I know that there are special strategic times that I use the DD card because it “masks” my result, only in combination with DFL
London Colin said:
Not a red herring at all. I apologize for my lack of communication skills. My point in the prior example (which had recently happened so it was fresh – it was NOT a good example) is that when the DD card is unknown it introduces a whole new set of numbers into the equation. As a person who writes those showboating programs let me give this a shot:
Let’s assume final or even EH ok?
A player who is BRL or BRL+1 DD’s on a stiff in an attempt to overcome the other players.
Now the other players betting next have to figure out what the probability of the DD on the stiff is and how that relates to the probability of BRL winning versus losing. In the past the result was evident and obvious and eliminated that uncertainty. Red herring – I don’t think so. Uncertainty factor introduced? Absolutely
London Colin said:
Good point that I hadn’t considered. I “assumed” that the DD could be for less. My underlying reason for asking the question is to find out how TBJ players feel about the introduction of “variance” or do they view it as a possible “tool” in their arsenal?
London Colin
Top Member
Eureka?
My brain hurts!
Interesting. I was limiting my thinking to the ways in which the DDer can benefit from hiding his actions, but what you seem to be pointing out is that, paradoxically, someone on the receiving end of this uncertainty can actually benefit, by virtue of dealing with it better than others do.
My brain hurts!
fgk42
New Member
Blast from the past regarding DD – up vs. down
http://www.blackjacktournaments.com/bb/showthread.php?t=2177
This thread started out with a question that was never answered. The thread shifted and was a good discussion by the way.
Let’s recycle this question and see what people’s response is to the question shall we?
Final hand, usual Global rules ($500 max bet, surrender available, etc), 2 advance.
BR3; 1300, bets 500, Hard 14
BR2; 1400, Bets 500, Soft 15
BR1; 1500, bets 500, 6,5
Dealer upcard; 9
What does BR3 do?
Now scenario 2
Final hand, usual EBJ ($25,000 max bet, surrender available, etc), 2 advance.
BR3; 1300, bets 500, Hard 14
BR2; 1400, Bets 500, Soft 15
BR1; 1500, bets 500, 6,5
Dealer upcard; 9
What does BR3 do?
In the first scenario, Global rules, the DD card is dealt face up for all to see. With EBJ the card is dealt face down. What would you do? In both cases BR3 is on the button.
http://www.blackjacktournaments.com/bb/showthread.php?t=2177
This thread started out with a question that was never answered. The thread shifted and was a good discussion by the way.
Let’s recycle this question and see what people’s response is to the question shall we?
Final hand, usual Global rules ($500 max bet, surrender available, etc), 2 advance.
BR3; 1300, bets 500, Hard 14
BR2; 1400, Bets 500, Soft 15
BR1; 1500, bets 500, 6,5
Dealer upcard; 9
What does BR3 do?
Now scenario 2
Final hand, usual EBJ ($25,000 max bet, surrender available, etc), 2 advance.
BR3; 1300, bets 500, Hard 14
BR2; 1400, Bets 500, Soft 15
BR1; 1500, bets 500, 6,5
Dealer upcard; 9
What does BR3 do?
In the first scenario, Global rules, the DD card is dealt face up for all to see. With EBJ the card is dealt face down. What would you do? In both cases BR3 is on the button.
Reachy
New Member
Well...
At global I'd double without a doubt, but it's in the lap of the BJ gods that one. You could try and slip a DFL and hope that BR2 doesn't notice and doubles for the full amount giving you the low, but that is very risky.
At bet21 you could try all sorts of tricks. You could utilise your secret action if you still had it and surrender back to the low or stand.
The EBJ example you gave is very different from the global example. At global you've max bet, at bet21 you've min bet and your potential actions are very different for both.
I'm not sure that having DD card face up or down would affect my decision making here. You are BRL acting first with neither high nor low, a crappy hand, BR2 and BR1 have excellent doubling hands and can correlate without fear of busting. Dealer is odds on to win so I'd try and get the low somehow and a secret action is your best hope of doing this.
Having your card exposed at global just means that BR2 and BR1 can tell whether you've bust or not. They have a free double anyway.
Interested to hear your thoughts...
Cheers
Reachy
At global I'd double without a doubt, but it's in the lap of the BJ gods that one. You could try and slip a DFL and hope that BR2 doesn't notice and doubles for the full amount giving you the low, but that is very risky.
At bet21 you could try all sorts of tricks. You could utilise your secret action if you still had it and surrender back to the low or stand.
The EBJ example you gave is very different from the global example. At global you've max bet, at bet21 you've min bet and your potential actions are very different for both.
I'm not sure that having DD card face up or down would affect my decision making here. You are BRL acting first with neither high nor low, a crappy hand, BR2 and BR1 have excellent doubling hands and can correlate without fear of busting. Dealer is odds on to win so I'd try and get the low somehow and a secret action is your best hope of doing this.
Having your card exposed at global just means that BR2 and BR1 can tell whether you've bust or not. They have a free double anyway.
Interested to hear your thoughts...
Cheers
Reachy
My initial decision here "at the table" is to double in both cases. At Global, where you've max bet, I would double for less, for $205. If BR2 and BR1 double for max bets, you'll have the low.
I'll check these exact scenarios with software, and see what optimal play is.
I'll check these exact scenarios with software, and see what optimal play is.
fgk42
New Member
My delayed .02
Alas, I’ll put my two cents in here.
First – in the original post there was discussion about BRL hitting to 19 vs. DD – no mention of that now?
Ken, I’d love to see the computer results on this and how it relates to my “logic”
At Gobal if I were BRL I’d DD for the full amount. Why? Well the card would appear up and BR1 & BR2 would see the results immediately. If I busted the rest is a mute point. DD for less with the card being up – I don’t see the point personally.
With EBJ – ah ha! Lots of different options available. For me personally I would use the secret action and double for 500 (the minimum). Rationale: This covers my hand so BR1 & BR2 don’t know if I’ve busted or not. I’m doing this so they “assume” I’ve doubled down for the full amount. Now the burden falls on BR2 to act. With a soft 15 and seeing that I’ve doubled down most likely they will DD too. Will they DD for less? Not many players do, it’s easier to hit the DD button. So my hope is that when BR2 DD they get a stiff, dealer turns a ten and I get the low.
With regard to BR1 – same scenario.
I WOULDN’T surrender here because there is no advantage gained as BR2 & BR1 would simply surrender also and I lose. Now the question is do I secret surrender? Hmmm that depends on the prior play of BR1 & BR2. If they are observant they would see the card move and know what happened. However if done in combination with chatting and mis-information this could be the method of choice. – Don’t ask me to elaborate on this (he he)
Alas, I’ll put my two cents in here.
First – in the original post there was discussion about BRL hitting to 19 vs. DD – no mention of that now?
Ken, I’d love to see the computer results on this and how it relates to my “logic”
At Gobal if I were BRL I’d DD for the full amount. Why? Well the card would appear up and BR1 & BR2 would see the results immediately. If I busted the rest is a mute point. DD for less with the card being up – I don’t see the point personally.
With EBJ – ah ha! Lots of different options available. For me personally I would use the secret action and double for 500 (the minimum). Rationale: This covers my hand so BR1 & BR2 don’t know if I’ve busted or not. I’m doing this so they “assume” I’ve doubled down for the full amount. Now the burden falls on BR2 to act. With a soft 15 and seeing that I’ve doubled down most likely they will DD too. Will they DD for less? Not many players do, it’s easier to hit the DD button. So my hope is that when BR2 DD they get a stiff, dealer turns a ten and I get the low.
With regard to BR1 – same scenario.
I WOULDN’T surrender here because there is no advantage gained as BR2 & BR1 would simply surrender also and I lose. Now the question is do I secret surrender? Hmmm that depends on the prior play of BR1 & BR2. If they are observant they would see the card move and know what happened. However if done in combination with chatting and mis-information this could be the method of choice. – Don’t ask me to elaborate on this (he he)