First BJ Tournament Ever - A Couple of Questions

Hey Everyone,

I'm playing my first BJ tournament in the Station Casinos' event. Next weekend (5/14) is the qualifier, with the main event the following weekend. I've been reading tournament strategies, looking over final hands from older tourneys, etc. The rules don't state how many decks will be dealt out of a shoe, but I presume six.

My B.S. is excellent. I'll mention counting in my questions, which follow the structure/rules (sorry so long - not sure what info the community needs to answer my questions):

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The structure/rules for the satellite:

- Start with T-3000, one rebuy ($100) allowed during the first qualifying round only

- Min. Bet = $100, No Max

- Rounds are 20 hands

- There are four rounds during the qualifier:

Rounds 1-2: Top three players from each table advance to the next round

Round 3: Winner of table advances to the final qualifying round

Round 4: Winner of table advances to the Main Event

Game Rules: HS17, No Surrender, BJ pays 2:1
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1. Based on your experience, how many players would you guess will shove immediately knowing they will be able to rebuy once? What do you think of shoving early?

2. I'm reading all of the articles I can find on bet sizing relative to the button/other stack sizes. Based on the rule set above, are there any unusual rules that might impact 'common' strategies? (No max bet, for example).

3. A simple count like Hi-Lo is visceral for me. I know that I'll be focusing on stacks/bets, but I think I can accurately count, too. It seems that the small edge counting may not have a significant impact over 20 hands. If I'm in a position needing to catch up and last to bet in the middle of a round, should I take a shot if the count has swung to something like TC +5 or 6, for example? Not sure I'll be able to resist the impulse if I'm behind, so if it's a really bad move, someone talk me out of it!

4. Aside from continuing to prepare (and any references to good strategy on other sites/books, if allowed on this forum, would be appreciated), is there any advice experienced players here would like to offer?

Thanks in advance for any help you can offer.

Best regards,

LIA

 

Monkeysystem is spot on, heed him well. Solid advice from one of the best. I'd just like to add a couple of things.

Rebuys in BJT's are rarely handled like they are in poker. Poker will generally let you rebuy right at your table so you may continue where you sit. In a table elimination BJT, like the event you've outlined, busting out means that you're all done and must go buy another entry into another round to compete against others who have done the same. Blasting away early in a round has few benefits and many negative ramifications. If you're dumb-lucky and succeed with those bets, there's still lots of hands left for someone to run you down - and somebody usually will. Of course, if your early big bets fail, then you're eliminated. Most truly good players here prefer to have some bullets left in the gun at the end of the round. If you've got chips, you've got a chance. If you're busted, you're gone.

There are a few folks here who worship at the altar of counting cards even during a table elimination BJT round but they're in the minority. Far more useful is the ability to accurately count all opponent's chip stacks by sight. As in most games, knowing the score determines the best strategy - if you don't know the score then you cannot accurately figure out what to do. The chip stacks are the score in this game and, unlike poker, you generally cannot ask for someone else to count 'em for you. There are quite a few excellent card counters on this forum who won't do it during a BJT round because the mental math gymnastics required to count chip stacks, remember 'em all, plus figure out how to cover their possible bets & results is quite enough without trying to track a card count, too.

Betting position on the final hand is critical. Figure out what your position will be for that hand as quickly as you can when the game starts. If someone busts out early, figure out how that affects your final hand position. If you're going to be early to act on that last hand then a somewhat more aggressive betting strategy in the hands leading to the final one is prudent because betting first while being short-stacked is a truly ugly predicament.

 

I'll echo both of these guys.

Also, with >1 advancing from the early rounds -- it is perfectly acceptable to be the nth person advancing. So if 2 advance, being 2nd or 3 advance being 3rd.

I do this for several reasons when I am managing to "just keep up" with chips. Main one, is to lower everyone's expectation of my play at the final table (if they're being that observant of my play style). If I don't need to play every tournament trick in the book (eg: splitting 10s 4x), I won't.

Final table play is different than the prelim rounds for me. I want make sure I've first offered a "chop" of the pot (depending on rules/size of prize pool vs. entry fee). Let people know I'm friendly and that usually a chop will be for $ > 3rd place. So if 7 at the final, 5 people do better than 3rd or if 6 at table, 4 people do better than 3rd. Not everyone understands "chops" -- may take a minute to explain (total pot divided by players remaining = your share). Some are too greedy/cocky and want to play it out for the top two money (as those will be worth more). Based on the knowledge you've gained about others' play, preferences, understanding = you now know how to play going forward (aggressive or steady).

In my case, as I like to play "weeklies" and end up seeing the same people over and over, chopping happens more because we have gotten to know eachother to a "friendly rivalry" level.

 

You may be too harsh-------not agreeing to "chops" doesn't necessarily mean someone is cocky or greedy. I'm not a big fan of "chops" myself and I don't think I really have either of those traits.

Billy C

 

Billy, it's how you read the others' reactions to the offer of a "chop" -- I actually ran into someone who said "Why do I need to give up the difference between the chop-$ and first-$?" and he then went down as the first player out, turned to me and said, "Maybe you were right...I'd have more money now than I do."

For me, it's about the personality of the others...I can't see how they all played as some may have never been on the same table as me. And anything I can glean about their play-style...it's information to use when the individual hands are played and I'm going before or after those I've picked out as arrogant style players.

And as for chops -- it really depends on how much I have invested (travel, meals, hotel, entry fee, re-buys or add-ons) vs. the prize value for the lower 4 or 5 payouts.

 

Stations 300K ??? Blackjack event

I guess I should chime in as I played the event last year. There are BIG differences this year....

300K well that is baloney as the satellites are being paid with 1 time promo chips. I say you can convert 30% if you are lucky. I realize some people can get away with playing red & black or whatever, but....

In the satellites we do not know how many advance until we get there. It is up to the manager of each casino. They probably will advance 1 so they get the rebuys. 3, 2, 1 advance in the main event rounds.

Chopping has been deemed "illegal" at Stations. This will need to be done away from the directors as they have stated "NO CHOP". Good luck controlling the situation. The winner will receive a 1099 for 100K. 6th place is 2500. Chopping would be good. Last year the prize fund was 150K and it was divided 45K for 1st, 20K for 2-6 and 5 for taxes.

I am way ahead of this tournament so I will play again but it is a crap shoot

 

I would like to thank everyone for taking the time to reply, and I would like to apologize for not acknowledging the replies sooner. I posted the same question at BJI.com because I thought they had more traffic, and I apprently forgot to select the 'Instant Notification' option here (but not there).

Re: Shoving Early: I wasn't aware of the differences between shoving in a BJ tourney and poker. Since you mentioned it, I'm sure you're familiar with the strategy many poker players use, and since the odds of winning a hand and doubling up are far greater in BJ than in poker (at least with good poker players, though there's always someone who seems wiliing to oblige the 'shover' in smaller buy-in events - especially online), I understand why we might not see as much in the BJ tournament.

On another note, since there is no direct buy-in to this tournament, I wonder how many additional recreational players are likely to play?

@Monkeysystem: I was actually thinking my chances for advancing might be pretty decent until I started reading the plethora of strategy articles online, especially the hand analysis of actual tournament plays that are posted here. I clearly have a lot to learn and should have started sooner, but I ordered both Smith and Wong's books and should have them today. I thought that 3 players advanced from rounds 1 & 2 of the satellite, but I think I was wrong and that is for the Main Event. That blows.

No kidding, right? I have company coming in on Friday night and I made the mistake of telling them about the event, so they will probably be there. They're ruthless friends, so I'll hear all about a weak showing for at least two days. That's okay - if the screw with me, I'll haul them down to the Bellagio and play some $5-$10 or $10-$20 HE - I usually get the last laugh when we play poker.

Re: Betting about the min until the last 5 or so rounds - I'd like to play as conservatively as possible for as long as practical. Obviously table conditions may make me alter that strategy, but I'm with you on those points.

@LeftNut (which I lost during April) - Counting Cards: As you mentioned, I've heard different opinions regarding counting, but clearly bet sizing and position are more important than counting, in my mind, anyway. If I can do them both, I will, otherwise I'll ditch the counting and focus 100% on bet structuring, tracking my position relative to the final hand, etc. As I said in another post, playing a betting game that happens to involve cards (as opposed to a card game where one bets) is not a foreign concept to me, though I know that doesn't guarantee results for me. Yes, I'll probably cross my fingers.

@Sandy Eggo - Chopping: Meh, in poker tournaments, whether I offer or accept a chop is dependant on several factors, but the point may be moot if Station has ruled chops illegal. With the disparity between 1st and 6th ($100k v. $5k, or even 1st & 2nd - $100k v. $25k), I would think chopping would be pretty enticing if allowed. I understand your strategy of not necessarily showing your best game in the early rounds. I have no ego re: winning the table if multiple players advance, though I don't know that I'll have any 'special moves' anyway considering my lack of experience.

@askdick: You said, "In the satellites we do not know how many advance until we get there. It is up to the manager of each casino. They probably will advance 1 so they get the rebuys. 3, 2, 1 advance in the main event rounds."

The rules say that rounds 1 & 2 will advance 3 players in the main event - are they likely to change that? Also, what have they done in the past regarding advancing multiple people in the early satellite rounds?

I see the promo chips are one-time play versus the regular promo chips Station gives out. If allowed, it seems like the best way to use them would be at the craps table behind the line.

As far as 1099'ing winners, well, it is what it is.

Again, thanks to everyone for taking the time to answer - I really appreciate it!

Best ~ L.I.A.

 

Rules

2:1 on a BJ probably doesn't affect strategy very much, but does make the outcome a bit more of a lottery I think. Big bettors can quickly get a huge lead if they strike it lucky.


No max bet removes a big part of the strategy that you would otherwise apply: attempting to stretch any micro-lead that you may have acquired beyond certain key milestones like 1/3, 1/2, or 1 max bet.

I've not played in any no-max tournaments, but I suppose the effect is that more players will be in with a shot on the last hand, since they cannot be locked out (or forced to double) by virtue of their deficit. (Only those who have a tiny BR left, compared to the leaders can potentially be locked out.)

 

the rules say advancement in the satellites will be determined by the management at that casino. all could be different. the rules are specific in the main event and I am quite sure will not change.

good luck in the tourney. it was much easier last year but who knows. if you are kucky on the 14th you could be VERY lucky on the 21st.

 

Huh?

 

Alternate site

On Ken Smith's alternate site "www.blackjackinfo.com" there is a place called Blackjack Tournaments. It has lots of BJT strategy that can be copied for free.
I would recommend that this be studied first before studing "How to Win more Blackjack Tournaments"


...............................BlueLight

 

Oh, I guess I need to clarify.....

My gaming results for April were sub-par, wiping out much of the gain I realized during March.

-- or --

"I lost my left nut during April. Hopefully my right nut will remain intact, as I may wish to procreate again."

Better?

 

Stations BIG Event

I am curious if any of the members made the big event scheduled for tomorrow at Green Valley Ranch.

I played at Santa Fe and several of my friends played at other stations and the rules were quite different at Santa Fe than the others. We got 750 with a min bet of 25 while most others got 3000 with a 100 min bet. Ratio is the same but not the stated rules. Bombed out in round 2.

It was fun and well run. Santa Fe stated they may do something like this monthly.

 

Didn't make it, but agree that it was a fun/well-run. I was in the 3000/100 group.

I have a buddy that made it, but I don't think he posts here. He was pretty happy with the multiple stacks of promo chips I saw him with at the BJ table afterwards, and he increased his total win by ~50% before cashing out.

Always nice to run good.....