Almost forgot to post this. At the tourny last week I snuck into round 2. It was 2 advance. The first bettor was BR1 and I was BR2 and the second bettor (last hand). I forget what BR1 bet, but I went all in. The third bettor bet half his stack and the fourth went all in. The third bettor doubled down after I played my hand and had no chips left. To make a long story short the dealer wiped out the table by drawing to a 21. The only one with chips left was BR1. We all thought we had to do a playoff (last 3 players) for the second advancement, but here's the catch. When I went all in, I had over max bet and the dealer didnt push any back. the max bet was 500 and I had about 650 out there. Had BR 2 known I had chips left, he probably wouldnt have doubled and I would have lost. He was asking the question who else goes to the next round if no one has chips left and then the dealer said I still had money left. I didnt even realize it myself but I got lucky. I never think about what the max bet is because I've not bet that high before (I've only played 3 tournys). This may be something I try again if the time is right because it worked pretty good. And so I made it to round 2. Rounder21
Wouldn't that be cheating? Rounder I'm not sure I'm reading your post right but if you're suggesting that you push out all your chips when you have more than a max bet in your BR in an attempt to misslead your opponents as to how much you have, I would say that that was at best dishonest and at worst cheating. If that's not what you are suggesting can you tell me what you are? Cheers Reachy
overbetting Rounder/Reachy - deliberate overbetting is at least deceptive - I would consider it unethical - but I wouldn't label it actual cheating unless someone gets paid for their overbet and keeps the improper winnings - I have seen this type of thing done in live tournaments deliberately - as well as people hiding chips and all kinds of stuff - far too often - with the dealers/casinos ignoring what is going on - not enforcing the rules - unless the other players vigorously complain - can be a big difference between casinos - Laughlin casinos some of the better - Yuma one of the worse - a good reason to develop and use chip counting skills - and to clearly voice complaints when someone gets out of line or does something deceptive or breaks the rule sorry Rounder - not a good 'strategy' -
In that same vein... Here's one that's in the grey area. My local casino strictly enforces the rule about string bets. Say I lead by 32.50, and bet first. Minimum bet is 5. Surrender is offered. I could grab a 25 chip and three 5 chips, and with a shaking hand drop them both in the circle, then try to pull the 25 chip back. When the dealer forces me to bet the 25 and gives me a warning about string bets, I moan and groan. If the opponent believes I just accidentally overbet and don't know what I'm doing, he could take the low by betting 5. Wham, bam, thank you ma'am... surrender trap. I've been tempted to try this one but refrained. It uses the casino employee who's doing her job enforcing the rules as an unwitting accomplice in a bluff. What do you guys think?
semantics Firstly I want to say that I don't think rounder cheated in his play as it was an accident. If however it was used as a deliberate strategy by player X I would say it was definitely cheating because X did get paid by advancing to the next round at the expense of Y. I don't wish to labour the point here but I think that deception can be a form of cheating and is in this case. If you tried this play against the house and they caught you I'm sure they'd say you were cheating! I know that wikipedia isn't the most reliable of sources but here is their definition Cheers Reachy
Easy fix By just stating in the rules that any bets placed in the betting area over the maximum will: (Few Options) 1. Pay the bet up to the maximum allowed with any "Over" chips considered dead and will be lost. 2. Any "Over" maximum bet is ruled "No Bet" and a minimum bet will replace it. *Note: this must be done before the hand is dealt or the full bet will be ruled "Dead" and considered a loss, other wise a player could purposely make this play knowing their bet would drop to a minimum wager for the low. 3. The entire bet is dead and the player loses the hand automatically. Number three should be used on the final five hands (last hand especially); this is where purposely over betting could benefit a player. *Please note that it is any players right to ask if another player has too much bet. Remember you are playing the other players and it is just as much your responsibility as the dealers to assure that everything on your table is done correctly, you have to keep your head in the game at all times.
Betting more than the max... In any tourny I've ever been in, overbets are always called by other players, and/or the dealer. An important element of tournament play is monitorng the bets of the other players.
Thanks for your responses... I dont consider it cheating. Had I won the hand I am sure I would have only won 500 dollars and not the full amount. It could have also been to my disadvantage had I needed to double down to win more than 500 when I had too much in the circle instead of in front of me. Yes it is deceptive and shady, but hey so is bluffing in poker. Doesnt make it cheating. Just part of the game. Until they change the rules to make it to my disadvantage I will consider doing it again. Thanks, Rounder21
Not enough to double? If you have 1000 and the initial bet limit is 500 and you "mistakenly" bet 600 and now you don't have enough to for a full double? Not to worry, you can always double for less for 400 and now have a total bet of 1000 which is the same as a full double for the 500 max bet. However you can penalize yourself by not having enough to split a pair, however I have seen players attempting to split for less. But this was caught by the other players. ...............BlueLight
I would never make this play, as I believe it is unethical. Also, BlueLight, in this case, an initial bet of $600 and a double down for $400 would probably be counted as a total bet of only $900.
overbets At Amerstar overbets are left on the table and can't be removed by the player, after the hand the overage is refunded to the play. His penalty is that the overage is not available for splits or dd. Works fine here. tgun
Deliberate overbet: No wonder poker players are suspicious of blackjack players. In a tourney, in my mind, deliberate violation of the stated rules is cheating. There is strategy, there can be deception. But with everything else one is concentrating on, having to also take into account an inept dealer and the occassional player who thinks getting away with something is tantamount to skill, is more than distracting and should be unnecessary. But once you have experienced either such event, it is incumbent on you to be aware of the possibilites. Bill O'Rielly isn't there to watch out for you.
"Bluffing" it is not! Bluffing in poker and deliberate overbetting in TBJ are not the same thing at all. Bluffing in poker is one the biggest skill elements as is reading the bluff. It's also not against the rules. Deliberate overbetting in order to deceive an opponent as to how many chips you had in BJ is plain cheating to my mind, it's sleight of hand. In poker, although I guess they aren't as strict about your chip stacks and how they should be organised and oriented, if a countdown was asked for and you then attempted to either hide chips or obscure your actual chip count in some way, I'm pretty sure you'd be pulled up on it and possibly be accused of cheating. I do agree however that it is each players responsibility to ensure that all bets are what they say they are. Cheers Reachy
Last post this thread by me... Thanks for your responses, I see I've started a great discussion. Heres what I mean by it keeps me from doubling. If I have a bet of 650 in the circle and there is a 500 max, then I cant even double for less for the other 150 because its not in front of me. Its in the circle. At this time, if I noticed I over bet (which means I will only collect 500 if I win the hand), I can bring it to the dealer's attention and if they give me the 150 back, then I can double for less having the oppurtunity to win 650 instead of 500. However, if the rules are like Ameristar, whats in the circle is in the circle until the hand is over and then I'm refunded the amount that is over 500 (150). I cannot win or lose more than 500 bucks. So it does keep me from doubling in this case and splitting. I've seen nothing in the rules that prohibits this or mentions the penalties for it. I suppose betting over the max could be considered against the rules, but if I bet below the minimum (accident or not), would you consider this cheating? Same concept. I was once playing at a 10 dollar table and bet 5. On purpose because I didnt want to bet the 10 and was hoping the dealer wouldnt catch it. She did though. I've seen it happen and if the dealer starts dealing the cards, she or he will usually call over the floor person and let them know what happened. The hand will be played out with the below minimum bet staying in the circle and the player will be told this is a 10 dollar table. Its not considered cheating, if it were, the player would be thrown out of the casino for such a thing. Thanks again. Rounder21
As others have mentioned, the rule about this varies widely from tournament to tournament. In one particular casino, this was becoming an issue and players were complaining about the tactic. That casino changed the rule so that any overbet is lost. If you push $650 out where there is a max $500 bet, and get a blackjack, the $150 goes in the dealer's rack and then they pay $750 on your $500 bet. My only complaint about this rule is that it penalizes players who are new to the game and just don't know the max bet. But it certainly encourages a quick learning curve!
Rounder - Get a clue Rounder, During a tournament, to underbet or overbet the limits is trying to cheat. Same as trying to add to your bet after seeing your cards, or hiding chips from other players. During a live money game, if you want to underbet the minimum, that is between you and the casino. Why not just change tables? But during a tournament I would hope to catch your sorry a$$ at the cheating attempt because it affects the other players in the tournament. Stretch
