killing the tournaments

all I hear is talk of how casinos are not having enough tournaments but yet where are the tournament players
standing around with hands in pocket
sitting out in car or truck
running back home (if close enough)
any where they can be but supporting the casino that is putting on the tournament for you
and this is what is killing your tournaments as another one goes on the chopping block no one gives a damn
but ya wine when you dont have them to play any more oh well

 

Problems on both sides

I agree that players need to help support tournaments, but the casinos need to offer tournaments worth players supporting as well.

In the past the best tournaments (biggest turnouts) were the ones that offered the players reasons to attend them. They offer a good format, rules, and most of all they were normally grouped in with other casinos tournaments back to back to back making it worth the travel expense, and very important they offered prize money worth the travel.

From what I'm hearing from players the Meskwaki tournament is the only casino that is willing to try and make their tournaments worth playing in (asking suggestion) and even then the prize money, location, and format isn't worth the travel for most players. I can see free rooms because of location as a draw, but if they would charge a small $49 - $69 per night rate and offer a bonus to the winner if they were staying at the hotel, increase the re-buys to half the entry ($200/$100) they could increase the payouts and offer multiple events (3-4 during the week) they would draw in so many more players.

Tourny man42 if the casinos want the players to stay and play there then they need to make it worth the players time and money. Now will this make everyone play while there? Certainly not, it is a numbers game, you need everyones entry fees to help build the prize pool big enough to draw in the more players that do offer side action. It's a Catch 22, deal with some to get more or don't deal and make less, it is up to the casinos.

 

ABSOLUTELY - YOU HIT THE NAIL ON THE HEAD​

I, and others, have been preaching this for years - and it is basically ignored. Why should a casino offer great rules to draw more players if those players do not support the casino though side action when they come to play the tournament? Most - but certainly not all - of the players that complain about lack of good rules and lack of open tournaments are the very ones that give the casinos little or no side action when they attend the tournament.

We have to give the casinos incentive to draw in players and we simply are not doing that. And then we cry when there is a lack of BJTs to attend. It will be interesting to see how long the Meskwaki tournaments last since I know of many who attended this event but gave little or no side action. The word is that it's a "great" tournament but they'll probably kill that one too.

 

another part to the story....

hmmm.....
seems the point is being made that casinos want side action......but players aren't giving them the action.........there is truth here but what about the "B" list of players........ I am talking about the players who want to play but are BARRED from playing........I am one of those players. Nobody should be barred from side play........what makes it even more frustrating for me personally is I don't count cards and I know many players who successfully count cards who go unnoticed by the suits and don't get barred.......

Qualifying play at the $25 level for tournaments with an entry fee seems reasonable to me. Black chip qualifying seems steep to me regardless of the economy but I don't make 250k a year either

Side play during the tournament should not be required for that event.....only to further your invitations in the future.........

As said many times before........the casino wants no risk.......if that is the case then get out of the gaming business and open a bowling alley.::laugh:

 

How much is enough?

i will always give a casino some play when @ tounrament,because i think it is expected & i like playing. however i'm not sure it is ever noticed or makes any difference, when talking w/pit boss @ local casino i ask why they never do anything for nickle/dime players? his reply was that they could get rid of all nickle/dime players and not change there bottom line enought to matter!!
i have friends who this casino treats very well (trips, meals,comps etc) and i think they should these people spend a lot of money there, but i don't have a hundred k to put across there tables in a year. (btw these people don't play bj tournys) i don't know the answer, but i'm willing to help support casinos that offer good tournys w/ my play but they may not find it significant.

 

As with most casino employees, my opinion is that this pit boss is grossly uninformed. True that the nickle and dime players do not get much, if anything, in comps. Now add together the fact that virtually no comps are given to the nickle and dime players plus the fact that they are usually playing at a table (Blackjack I assume) with very bad rules, and the result is that the casino makes a lot of money on these players. Why else would they offer games to the nickle and dime players?

The question of how much side action should be given depends on the casino. For "open" tournaments, if you receive offers (in the mail after you play) for free rooms, a few meals, and maybe some small free play, then I would say you are giving the casino enough side action. For "invitational" tournaments, if you receive invites then your play is sufficient. How much play is hard to determine since part of the problem is that each game has a different value to the casino. Sometimes inquiring will help but the best source is talking to fellow players who get the invites you are interested in playing.

 

Required play

If a casino offers you a 1.99 meal are you obligated to give them side action. The points of view here are ridiculous. The casino should make money from the tournament, pay the dealers a decent wage and side action should only be a choice by the players. As stated before, poker does it that way and allows all players to play, advantaged or not. With most of the casinos providing rules that does not favor the advantage player, why should they care?

Tournaments are to get you in the casino and they are hoping that you will give them action. I am not obligated to do so and DON'T play their bad games. It seems a bad choice to play and sometimes loose more than the entry fee is worth.

 

The casino isnt looking to only get play during the tourney they are looking for long term players aka player development. Many times the goal is to get you in and feel comfort so you come back. The main goal is pure and simple-get more players. If the venture isnt producing players its a failure.

Of course this doesnt explain why some very successful games go down the drain even when the tourney is filling the tables and machines.

 

I agree totally with askdisk and the meal is a good example. I think that the side play debate is a paranoia coming from the card counting culture. Casinos stop offering tournaments when they don't fill up easily, period. If tournaments would quickly fill up with paid entries, they would continue to offer them.

 

Z

"Card counting culture", :laugh: Funny line...you have something against them?

In the case of Ignace it got to be very funny a couple of years ago when most the tourney BJ players could not be found in the evening. The casino was making no money off the tourney and the players were getting a almost free 3 days of food and rooms and a chance to play in the tourney. I used to buy into the tourney, burn my way out fast just to get back to the money tables, play non-stop and get a $175 3 day holiday, room and food and gift etc.

That ended over a year ago. It is all about who gives the action, and they are allowed to play in the tourneys, BJ, Slots, VP, Poker, Keno. NO more free rides. If you do give good action you can have it your way, it is all good. I cannot blame the casino for wanting the action.

In most cases they do not demand that much action. I do know that in 2010 tourneys at Ignace will be more costly.

CP

 

Absolutely not, it's a fun sport.

 

side play

UNLESS I AM WAY OUT IN LEFT FIELD ON THIS MATTER I UNDERSTAND THAT THE LOCALS WILL PROBABLY PLAY A TOURNAMENT AND GO HOME WITHOUT ANY SIDE PLAY BUT THE CASINO IS GETTING SIDE PLAY ALL YEAR FROM THE LOCALS. THE OUT OF TOWNERS THAT COME IN FOR TOURNAMENTS INCLUDING MYSELF WILL ALWAYS GIVE SIDE PLAY JUST BECAUSE OF THE NATURE OF THE ANIMAL UNLESS OF COURSE I AM A COMPLETE DEGENERATE IN THE CASINO. I DO NOT THINK I AM BUT I ENJOY PLAYING MY FAVORITE GAMES IN THE CASINO. GRANTED THE OUT OF TOWN TOURNAMENTS REQUIRE TRAVEL ROOM AND FOOD AND ENTRY THAT IS THE THE WAY IT IS AND HAS TO BE ACCEPTED BY THE PLAYER. IF YOU CAN GET SOME PERKS WITH TOURANMENT THE MORE THE BETTER TO MAKE IT WORTHWHILE TO PLAY IN THE TOURNAMENT.
JUST MY 2 CENTS WORTH
THIS JUST SEEMS TO ME THAT THIS IS POLITCAL WITH THE CASINOS AND MAYBE THE PLAYERS ALSO. OK SO I AM RAMBLING ABOUT NOT MUCH OF NOTHING BUT BOTTEM LINE I DO GIVE SIDE ACTION WHEN I AND OR WE PLAY TOURNAMENTS I THINK THE CASINOS NEED A BETTER WAY OF TRACKING THE TOURNAMENT PLAYERS ALTHO WITH SAID A LOT OF PLAYERS DO NOT WANT TO BE TRACKED IN PLAY OR SPENDING HABITS.

 

killing tournaments

thanks for all your replies
there are alot of good points here and what I was getting at was both local and players that travel over 2hrs to play in a weekly tourny that has a garenteed pay out and with about only 10% supporting the casino that leaves 90% doing nothing but wanting more out of the casino due to the econamy and where does that leave casinos not giving more but taking more away and pissing everyone off
thank again

 

Ap

If you can play with an advantage, why wouldn't you give side action? It will take some diligence to find AP (you won't at some houses) but most times an even (or very close to even) game can be found.
Two problems with this--------

1. Casino may disinvite you to future events
2. The resulting paranoia of a bunch of APs coming in would decrease event offerings even more.

Billy C

 

Buying into the scam

So many people seem to be buying into the 'side play' scam. And I truly think that is what it is.

Casinos put tournament blackjack events on as PROMOTIONS, not as COMPETITIONS. Casinos can't tell a tbj from a slot tournament; as far as they are concerned, they are the same. They have NO INTEREST in a true or fair competition, attracting serious players, having low rollers in the mix, or allowing skilled play. Just read the post/article on how Barona puts on tourneys. That is real. They want a fun event for their highrollers, and want the highrollers to win. They allow paid players only so they can recoup some of their costs to suck up to the highrollers, or to make the pot for the highrollers larger. So they stick in carnival game rules (mulligans, 2-1 bjs, 3-1 suited bjs, 5-1 for 6 card charlies, secret bets, everyone gets an ace in the fourth round, etc, etc.), give their high rollers later round comped entries, and so forth, then hassle the skilled players for being skilled and lowering their clueless highrollers' chances of winning, and hassle the low rollers for not giving them highroller side action. They do not want you playing in their games, they just want you to give them money and then to shut up and go away.

As long as we buy their schitck, we get conned, and the casinos win. We will ONLY get fair and skillful games when and if the casinos see tbj as a profit center, as they do poker tournaments. They have to make money off of the tournaments. And that means raked tournaments, as poker has. When we stop looking for freebie positive equity tourneys, with everything comped, which are highroller promotions, and nothing else, and start accepting that we need to trust our skills in a true skillful competition, and that we can overcome a reasonable rake, then we might start seeing casinos put on tbj as a competition for skilled players, as poker tournaments are. As long as we are willing to pay them to let us into highroller promotions and then be abused and mistreated they'll keep doing that. Aren't you all tired of being the suckers they are taking advantage of?

 

It takes all types to make tournaments successful

As I pointed out on the first reply, we all need one another to make these tournaments successful.

1. Casino comped VIP's (both local and out of town players)

2. Local paying players

a) Seasoned tournament players (make 2-6 events per year)

b) Tour seasoned tournament players (make 70% or more events)

3. Out of town paying players

a) Seasoned tournament players (make 2-6 events per year)

b) Tour seasoned tournament players (make 70% or more events)

6. First time and beginning players.

Out of these players there will be some players who play more then what the casino expects while some don't give the casino much if any side action. Lets face facts, that is just the way it is.

Now what can the casinos do to change this without cutting the tournaments completely? Not much to force players to play without running them away, but they can cut corners by stop giving away all the freebies

a) Hotel rooms

b) Any and all food comps

c) Special tournament gifts

These are all expenses that the casino can and should cut off the top and only comp to those players who do give the required side action.

I also think about 15 to 25% of the first place prize money should be in the form of a bonus and only awarded if the winner has stayed in the hosting casinos hotel for minimum of two nights (or at least paid for two nights).

Players can get mad at me all they want for what I'm saying, I really don't care I'm worried about not just keeping blackjack tournaments alive, but trying to build them up. Most any player who gets mad are probably the ones who don't give any side action.

We need to stop looking at what we can get right now and start looking at the future before it's to late. Meskwaki is a perfect example, now there the best tournament offered some are saying. What if they stop offering free rooms, stop free the comp food, start barring players, and cut back on the prize money due to low turnouts, basically everything that has killed other events. How many of you will travel to Tama, Iowa for the tournaments then?

I can promise you right here and now, not many would put up with a 6 round tournament out in no where if they stop giving away all the freebies and cut the prize money and that is what is going to happen just like it has everywhere. The number crunchers will finally learn that they are giving away to much and start trying to cut corners.

Sure the people that run the events may be the nice people, they may really care about what the players want and listen to them, but bottom line is they don't have the final say so and they will do what they are told or they will be gone.

Now before that happens I hope both the casinos and the players can start realizing what needs to change if we want to have successful tournaments for both the casinos and the players.

Please don't get me wrong, I'm not knocking Meskwaki Casino I was just them as a current example of what has killed other tournaments in the past.

My Airline format (like it or not) was designed to build profits for both the casino and the prize pool up for the players.

This format would use less tables/dealers so cost would be down for the casinos as well. And by offering the mini/satellite tournaments three days before the main event it would draw in both out of town players as well as their regular/local players. This would also create more hotel rooms and food sells for the casinos and most of the players coming in early would be the players who would give side action making it more profitable for the casinos.

Now you may think I'm way off, but when they tried my suggestion of multiple events in Tulsa I was told they made lots more money on the tournaments then they ever had before.

What killed the tournaments wasn't that they had players who didn't give side action, but the casino offering to much to too many for free (just trying to be too nice) and then complaining about those who didn't give side action. What they did was cut off their nose to spite their face. Now instead of continuing to host successful week long tournaments (even with the non side action players in attendance) they now stopped the tournaments and are making nothing. Guess they showed us, hell of away to run a business, but we both lose on the deal.

 

More Ranting

Rick...you put on some decent tournaments, with good format and rules..and about ..what?...25 to 30 people showed up for each of them?. That's the problem. There are about ...hmmm...40 to 50 people? in the United States who'll risk their money in a tbj where they have to deal with a rake and skillful format and rules. Compared to maybe 4 to 5 million who'll do that for poker. The problem is that so few people are willing to play tbj and depend on their skills to give them a positive return on their investment. TBJ players want everything comped and a positive equity tournament, so that they have a positive expectation on their ROI just for showing up; because they don't really believe they can get a positive return based on their playing skills.

What we want is to be treated like comped highrollers, without being highrollers. And then we whine when the casinos don't want us. The solution is not to become clueless highrollers that throw big side action at the casinos, nor to mess with the formats and rules to bastardize the game.

The solution is to start with small, skill based tourneys, promote the game as a skilled competition, and introduce people to tbj from that perspective. Then build up to the larger tournaments, as the skilled player pool builds up. We can't start at the top, because there is no top.

 

We got to work together

Richard starting out small is great for local events without much travel involved, but not many will travel to play.

A grand prize of $20,000 for 1st place is what it takes to have most players willing to travel from surveys and polls taken. This is enough money to attract all the groups I listed in my post above.

I'm not disagreeing with anyone here, every problem members have discussed are real problems and need to be corrected one way or another. That is what I am trying to do. Below are the issues I have been working on and ways I'm trying to correct them. If anyone has a better solution I'd be glad to listen, after all this is what this forum is for.

Problems are not listed in any certain order

Problem: Players not giving side action and only playing in the tournaments.

Solution: Stop worrying about that and get money other ways. Tournaments need players to be successful bottom line and as you can see from every discussion we have ever had here, your going to have view points for both sides.

Problem: Casinos worrying about losing money on the tournaments.

Solution: Stop giving away so many freebies, Richard is right several of the tournament players want the freebies, but they need to earn them or pay for them if not giving the casino side action.

Problem: Guaranteed prize money by the casinos.

Solution: Whats so funny about this is 90% or more of the casinos post guaranteed prize money, but in small print it is based on a certain number of entries. If the number is not reached they only payout what is collected. So it's really not a guarantee anyway. Even a $20,000 guarantee isn't $20K added to the prize pool as most think, but guaranteed until $20k worth of entries and re-buys are collected.

Problem: Top heavy and final table payouts.

Solution: Simply pay through the semifinals (normally top 18 players) and start first place pay at around 35%. Paying 50% or more for 1st is to much.

Problem: Players not staying at the hotel/casinos.

Solution: Stop trying to stick the players with $100 + room rates.
a) Simply allow tournament players discounted rates of $49 - $69 dollars per night.
b) Offer bonus payout of $5,000 to the winner of the of the main event if they are staying at the the hotel. If the winner isn't staying there the casino saves $5,000. (Note: this is a bonus, not part of the entries or re-buys).
c) Offer multiple events so out of town players will have to stay more days at the casino.

Problem: Crappy format and rules, problem is most TD don't know what to offer because they don't play tournaments or fully understand the reason behind the rules.

Solution: very simple, change the crappy format and rules, but get someone to either run your tournaments or get someone to help you run these tournaments that understand tournaments. I see so many TC asking players what should they do when a situation pops up.

Problem: Justify travel expense.

Solution: Follow most all the solutions discussed so far. Offer multiple events, affordable rooms and entries, offer re-buys (multiple re-buys would even better), Format and rules that give the players the feeling they can control their own fate (no all in bets, single player advancing that make the tournament a coin toss).

Problem: Player turnout / total entries.

Solution: Give a $25 discount if a player signs up 6 weeks before the event, in my Airline format we offer limited seats for the later rounds to try and get seats sold out faster and allow double entries (does it really matter if you have 200 entries with 200 players or only 100 with two entries each?

Problem: Dealers not wanting to deal or crappy/unhappy dealers

Solution: charge a $5 dealers fee from every player in the first round and re-buy rounds besides what they get tipped. This will assure that the dealers are taken care of and keep them happy and hopefully less mis-deals. Put yourself in their shoes, would you want to deal to a bunch of bitchy players that don't tip (don't say a word you know it's true, maybe not by you but you've seen it done).

Problem: Promo chips.

Solution: I don't have a problem with play till you lose promo chips paid for face value. Example: $20k win and you get $10K cash and $10K promo chips (good kind). DON'T try to pawn off $10K cash and $10K promo chips that are the bet once and there gone. Those chips are only half value so your actually paying out $15,000 total. Also don't payout me $2K in promo chips and the breakdown is 4-$500 chips. Break them down so we can play. One $500 chip is fine then maybe 10-$100 chips, $500 in $25 chips. My point is break it down so we can actually play them to possible win the real cash and not 4 bets and hope we get lucky.

Problem: Side action, tables and or machine play.

Solution: You want players to give you action, offer special deals like drawing for $25 to $100 every 30 minutes base on how many players are playing at the regular tables, you could also base the give away on $10 bets or higher.

Problem: Players the casinos don't want playing.

Solution: if the casino don't want certain players action simply tell them. Don't ban them from the tournaments, those players are still helping to build your prize pool up and it is your wishes that they don't play. Just think if the casino didn't allow 20 players at $250 entries would equal $5,000 not counting any possible re-buys so could be as much as $7,500 from the prize pool.

Problem: "Pro's" ruin the tournaments for the rest of us.

Solution: First off I hate that term "Pro's"! How does a season tournament players (STP) ruin the game? They say skill or skillful when what we are really doing is playing percentages and using common sense. Yes there are situations where players can use storage, but that is just it, storage. If a player can't figure out that they needs to bet a max bet and DD whatever he gets to have a chance to win on the last hand is that a (STP) fault? If a player gets trapped? If a player mis-counts? If a player doesn't understand to hold back a chip more then everyone else? These are all situation where common sense comes into play, so stop whining if you screw up, you weren't cheated you just screwed up, we all have and we will again.

Problem: Players and or people talking behind the tables.

Solution: None, absolutely no talking from players to anyone other then the players. One warning if it happens then penalize them. If it is someone behind watching stop play and ask the person talking to leave the area end of story (I don't care if they are just telling someone what time is is). And they have to move from the area, I don't care if it is a family member of friend. Also English is the ONLY language allowed, any other disqualify them or penalize them chips. I hate playing with someone that speaks English throughout the tournament, then on the final table their friends start speaking a foreign language behind them.

Problem: Players taking to long

Solution: Time them, use timers and if they go over penalize them whatever the rules state.

Problem: Chip stakes to high or chips hidden.

Solution: Keep chips in stacks no higher then 10 and same values together, no mixing them together. Players and floor staff may both call a player on this. No penalty since any of the players can request the another players stacks to be checked.

I'm sure there are a lot of problems I missed, just posted them and I'm sure they will be addressed and opinions offered to correct them.

 

CPR for tourneys

RKuczek is more than basically correct in his assessment.

Tx in a never ending effort has tried to create a non hostile environment which would include everyone.

UBT tried to establish a skilled based tourney format open to all. (Albeit some of the principals in their official capacities outside their investment would not want/don't want many of the players invited to initially set up the format to play anything else at a principals "house.")

Global Player (on-line) met stiff resistance initially to it's tourneys, because as RKuczek noted in his post, the really AP players thought the Vig was too large, (10 per cent) just as in Poker Tourneys. But when global dropped the vig to 5 per cent, a core of about 60 people (AP, ETP's, newbees and in between) played quite regularly.

The old days of an AP, or ETP, getting into a high stakes tourney are over, unless as TOOL has repeatedly stated, they give enough side action(and many ETP, know, have asked, and either try to meet the side action requirement, or ignore that event, based on their own calculations of EV)

Until someone like TX can convince a "house" that holding a skilled, open to all BJ tourney is profitable to the house, there won't be many open tourneys to play in that meet ETP expectations and those who enjoy tourneys will have to just play in whatever they can find, which pop up and go away, after they've outlived there initial intents for a particular house.

Now nothing against TX, but if all the big name, big money, big celebrity couldn't power the UBT into a viable lasting event, one lone Don Quiote of a Texan doesn't stand much of a chance. (And yeah, I know some will complain about the high entry fees to UBT, which is valid. But, even lower entry events didn't stir much interest.)

 

I thought the vig at Global was 10% for all the time I played there. Am I misremembering? (Or maybe that was just the Sit-n-Gos?)