It's just been too quiet here at BJT.com lately, so I thought I'd see if we can shake things up a little bit. Perhaps everyone is tired from a long week in Tulsa.... and congrats to all who were there, win or lose! :cheers: Here's the question for debate: Is it easier to get to a Final Table through the online venue than going through the onsite elimination process? Since I can't speak from experience about the onsite route, but can speak from double experience online, I'll take the side that it must be easier onsite. Let's take the recent UBT debacle at the Palms as an example. If I'm not mistaken, due to the reduced entry count, one had to survive through only two tables to get to the show. Granted, the competition there is individually a whale of a lot tougher, but Deb (and Kenneth Myles) had to survive a total of TEN tables to get there, counting the qualifying tournament and the Main Event. They also had to be the last one standing at the last table to win. Plus, there's the "wildcat" factor online - you just don't know when a couple of bomber ploppies are going to start catching anything and everything, & simply blow you right out of the water. Onsite play is highly unlikely to see such indefensible "strategy." It's more skill onsite than online, but it seems to me that online is still tougher simply because of sheer entry numbers. Granted, there's no travel involved and you can sit in your home and raid your own refrigerator in between rounds, but 10 rounds is a helluva lot more than 2. Fire away.
great question great post there leftnut.. one major thing i will mention.. is it MUCH easier to make accurate bets ONLINE.. as opposed to ONSITE where you have to chip count manually.. ..also its easier to cheer against your opponent ONLINE.. :joker:
Excellent point, duro. Deb and I both found the live chip counting & betting to be significantly tougher than in the online game. Score one for the onsite play being tougher! Here's another point for the online side of the debate. When Deb and I won our online tournaments to gain the TV final table seats, the "Main Events" had over 1,100 entrants at the starting gate, and there was only one winner. Live play at the Palms, as an example, had 60-something entrants vying for 12 final table seats.
No doubt I have very limited experience of B&M tourneys but I have no doubt that they are much harder than online ones. Not only do you have the chip counting issue but myriad other psychological and operational ones. Also, the number of participants in a tourney doesn't affect your chances of success as much as you may think. There was a thread where this was discussed a few months back (which I can't find now ). Here's a flavour. If you have 2 tourneys, 1 with 700 competitors and 1 with 350, you may have to beat 22 other players to win the 700 entrant event and only 21 to win the 350 entrant event. Here's why: Each event could have 4 rounds, with the 700er having just 2 advance in the 1st round whereas the 350er has 3 advance. Then both tourneys can follow a similar structure of 2 advance, then 1 advance then 1 winner. These numbers aren't precise as I haven't got a lot of time to work them out more accurately but they make my point. Cheers Reachy
Comparing online BJT to live BJT is comparing apples to watermelons. There are several reasons for the differences: 1. Level of competition/experience part 1. Online, especially freerolls have LOTS of ploppies. When it doesn’t cost anything to play people don’t give lots of thought to their playing style. This doesn’t apply to everyone. When people know that they’ve got nothing to lose why not go all in on hand 1? Wow I got a BJ! Let’s try that again! Wow dealer busts I’ve got 87,500 now! I have yet to see anyone go all in on their first hand in a non-accumulation live BJT. 2. Experience levels part 2 – even in invite only live BJT – most of the players have some BJ experience. It may not be tourney experience but they know how to play. Some are VERY experienced players but regardless they are there to play. Online there are many who do it for a whim. I know that I’ve been known to just max bet when I get called for dinnertime because it’s less painful to loss than get “the look” from the Mrs. 3. Chip counting – is this really a skill? It’s been debated back and forth but in reality it is nothing more than a roadblock specifically designed to deter newbie’s from playing. Those players who have been playing for “years” will argue how important a “skill” it is to count, etc., but in reality it is nothing more than a test of one’s ability to have good vision. Chip counting is stupid and should be outlawed. 4. Strategy – this is what separates live from online BJT. More strategy is necessary for the online players than in live tourneys. Now the “experienced” BJT players will take issue with me on this but let’s face it, I’ve seen enough live events to know that 70% of the “experienced” veterans just minimum bet their way into the last 5 hands allowing the others to “self-destruct”. While that may be “a” strategy and it may be a successful strategy, it is lazy. 5. Cards – online you’re dealing with a random set of cards each and every hand – well you’re “supposed to” while in a live event you have the opportunity to keep track of cards. Now certain people will say that counting isn’t effective in BJT and to those people I say – ok. However there are certain times when knowing that 20 low cards were just played or that its hand 10 and only 2 aces have been burned is VERY useful. 6. Distractions – each format has its own unique set of distractions. Live events – other players talking, dealer’s quirks, spouses, noises, tables next door, etc. Online – losing connections, spouses, kids, dogs, etc. In my mind this is the only category where the two formats, while having different distractions, is equal to the other. 7. Money on the line – live events have a bigger prize pool. Now I know that there are weekly events or daily events for low stakes, I’m NOT talking about them. I’m talking about the 30K and bigger live events. With those dollars on the line people play and think and act differently then if you’re online playing for 24.50. Should it be different? No, but it is what it is. 8. Skill – I disagree that live involves more skill. Take the Tulsa events that recently occurred. On the final hand with most players “clumped and within striking distance” desperation plays like DD on 17 or catching a 5 on a 15 with a DD max bet against a dealer 10 – is that skill? Is getting to a point where your only hope of winning is to DD on an 18 a sign of skill or just I need dumb luck? In my thought process the skills involved are such that you position yourself in the lead if you have to bet first or if you’re betting last to position yourself such that you “force” your opponent to make a certain bet in order to win. Now having listed those 9 points I believe that there are more skilled “live” BJT players than there are online BJT players. Why? For two (2) simple reasons: One – online BJT hasn’t been around long enough for a core group of skilled players – many more newbie’s at this point and two – chip counting discourages newer/younger/inexperienced players from playing in the live events. If live events had RFID chips and a tote board, similar to Bet21.com, at the table you would see a HUGE influx of newer and younger TBJ players. As it currently exists with higher BJT buy-ins, chip counting and an “old boys” network I wouldn’t expect many changes to occur. All the BJT on TV won’t change it. It may get some people excited but unless they can actually play the game the excitement quickly fades away. Both live and online formats have their strengths and weakness but with both formats there is too much “luck” involved for skillful play to overcome bad cards.
excellent post fgk42 I will agree with almost everything you said - but will add a couple of things - 1. online tbj is elimination bj - while casino tbj is traditional tournament bj - these are different games - and I believe that elimination bj maximizes luck - and minimizes skill - so that's a factor 2. 'chip counting' is a legitimate 'skill' in tbj like a baseball player having to make his own bat would be in baseball - yes - you need a bat to play baseball - but knowing how to make your own bat, while a 'skill', has nothing to do with knowing how to play baseball - nor does chip counting have anything to do with knowing how to play tbj - I think a lot of players like to emphasize the importance of chip counting - as they have little in the way of legitimate skill - so have to gain an edge somehow - (confession: I am not the world's greatest chip counter - so personal bias may be in play here) 3. throwing out a string of minimum bets to start out the table is not a 'strategy' - it is a confession that you have not a clue as to how to play these early hands - it is a lack of strategy - but it works against really bad players who are even more clueless
RK I think Bear and the people at blackjack21.com would tend to disagree with you on this. That site has traditional BJT (15 hands and 4 decks) With regard to EBJ maximizing luck and minimize skill - I understand but disagree with your position. For example just go to Bet21.com and click on the completed tournament section - you'll see the list of players and positions. Certain names are consistently appearing at the final tables. I don't consider that luck. Individual hands luck yes but in my mind it takes more skill to go head to head or against 2 people and win versus sitting at a full table on the final hand. That's where the throw all the c*** against the wall and see what sticks comes into play. Or does that mean that sight impaired players aren't as skilled as those with 20:20 vision? It's a smoke screen originally designed by people unable to comprehend various complicated strategies in order to intimidate other players. If chip counting were such a great skill why does the UBT and WSOB edit out all the leaning across the tables and post totals on the screen for the viewing audience? I'm not saying that minimum bets are bad - just 20 of 24 bets being min bets reflect what you have said. There any many times, when I used to play EBJ, and depending upon my seat assignment(s) I would min bet for several hands.
Great stuff! Some great stuff so far, but let's clear up one apparent misconception. The original intent wasn't to compare apples to watermelons - meaning live TBJ vs. online EBJ. Apples to apples, folks. Live EBJ vs. online EBJ, attempting to score a final table spot in the same event from two different directions. I'll stay out of the developing fray regarding chip counting in the live games, as I've posted my opinions on that quite a few times.
I forgot Blackjack21 - as I can't deposit money to play there - I do strings of minimum bets as well - at times - it is a usable strategy - but it should not be your ONLY strategy - as far as chip counting - a good player takes advantage of his/her situation and the rules - and that makes chip counting skill an advantage for many players - but it still is not a "tbj skill" - anymore than an ice skater should have to sharpen their own skate blades - it is a related skill - which comes into play because the technology to eliminate the need for chip counting was not available when tbj started - it is available today -
online vs. onsite i cant believe no one mentioned anything about ... the internet going down! when you play tournaments online you always run the risk of your internet just stop working.. oh yeah its happened before.. and it sucks! :joker:
