I'm not exactly a newbie, having played in mini-ts since the mid-80s. But after a considerable hiatus I just tried my first elimination bj tournament and was struck by how much more complicated it makes the game. In the old days you could often just waddle about until the end, at which time endgame calculations were of course often extremely complex. But the new elimination hand innovation seems to have made the game a couple of orders of magnitude more complicated (secret bets and surrender were of course part of the old scene in some tournaments). I'm wondering if some of the vets like Smith or the esteemed S. Yama have an opinion on whether this has increased or decreased their overall ev. The "herding" effect that having a lion gobble one player every so many hands would seem to reward the earlier risk-takers to some degree, a class that in the past was said to be performing suboptimally. Finally, I just wanted to observe that the final or elimination rounds of this game can yield questions of stupendous complexity; sadly, I don't think much of the world appreciates how difficult getting close to optimal solutions (and in just a few seconds, worse) can be. TBJ may be one of the most challenging endeavors for the human mind ever invented, a little appreciated notion among the "civilians".
Hey Bronco, While I can't speak for the experienced pros around here I wanted to show you a thread that I thought covered this topic pretty good - balanced and informative. Give it a look through. http://www.blackjacktournaments.com/bb/showthread.php?t=2945 On a personal note how did you like the EBJ as compared to TBJ?
Hey bronco, I almost forgot this message in yesterday's maelstrom. The elimination twists do indeed add a lot of complexity to an already complicated game. The more you learn about this game, the more you realize you don't know squat! As you note, the "challenging endeavor" aspect of the game is routinely unappreciated by civilians, even those who dabble at tournament play themselves. I'm always astonished by the players, new to tournaments, who get upset when a player spends a minute or two making a bet decision. The uninformed just don't see the complexity of the situations being assessed. They figure you put some money in the circle, and whoever gets the best hand wins. If they stick with the game, they will finally realize that the learning curve extends upward as far as the eye can see. I didn't check which thread Fred pointed you to in his post, but there are a couple that have talked about the EBJ skill factor compared to traditional tournaments. I haven't done an actual EV comparison, but I'll give you my gut feeling after playing a lot of both. If the field is weak, I think the EV in EBJ is much higher. There are a lot of ways for inexperienced players to get themselves in trouble for the elimination hands. When that happens, they're gone, and they can't get lucky with their big bets at the end to win the match. However, if the field is strong, then I think the pendulum swings back the other way, and the EV might be lower at EBJ. The increased variance (gotta win something in the first 8 hands), and the reduced information available (secret bet, doubles face down) make the game more of a crapshoot when you're playing against quality opponents. I love the EBJ format. I find it exciting and challenging. I hope that both formats live a long and healthy life.
