Palms attendance thoughts

Ken

I think they, ubt, are headed in the right way as the next circuit event is at Venetian for 1000$. I hope you will miss that one and be in Laughlin......

 

Ken,

I for one had been planning on attending The Palms but I didn't - instead I went to Tunica. My reasons for switching were:

1. No communication from UBT. I couldn't pre-register anywhere while at Tunica I called the number, spoke to a host and BAM it was a done deal

2. No guarenteed prize pool. I mean lets face it when you're spending that kind of money, along with airfare, transportation, meals, etc. Isn't it nice to know what you're expected money pool would be?

3. Player's. Let's face it when you have an All In player ranking system and the #1-10 players are going to be at one tournament that costs 2700 versus another tournament that costs 1,000 where do you stand a better chance of placing?

4. Value - I played in a guarenteed 100K event that cost me 500 to enter the month prior. At Tunica it was 1,000 for a 250K event. At The Palms 2700 for a guarentee at ???? No one could answer the question.

Are there going to be enough players willing to shell out 2700 for a BJT? Not many but there will be some. What's the solution? UBT needs more circuit events - Barona was a perfect example.

Also if Bet21.com had some satellites/feeders like they did with St. Kitts don't you think the attendance would have been greater?

I hear rumors that UBT is looking at reducing the entry fee, and I hope that is true. Barona's attendance numbers with $250 to $500 entry fees obviously drew a lot more interest than the Palms big one. I wonder if the July Venetian (which I'll miss) can still reduce the main event entry fee to a lower sum to encourage attendance?[/QUOTE]

 

Ken, you hit the nail on the head. I was all set to go to the Palms for my first live tournament. But when I added in all the costs to fly my girlfriend and myself to LV, stay at a hotel for 3-5 nights (and they were not cheap on the dates surrounding the tournament), plus all the extras...and THEN have to shell out $2,700 for a chance at -- I didn't know what, since there was no prize pool announced -- I decided to cancel that trip. Instead, I'll play my first live tournament in Barona in June. Sure, there will be a lot more players, but my risk is less since the buy-in is so much lower.

Plus, we're making it a west coast trip for ourselves...15 days from Portland Oregon down the coast through wine country, then on to LA for a few days and finishing up in Barona. So, technically the cost for the tournament will be the entry fee and less-expensive-than-LV hotel.

As far as promotion goes...if the UBT, bet21.com, the Venetian, and the Palms don't get their act together and treat EBJ like the possibility it is, then it will die a quick death once the CBS contract is fulfilled. We all know bet21 sucks at marketing and communication. But to have the same happen from The Palms -- a major LV casino that spends hundreds of thousands of dollars, if not millions, on promotions and mailings -- is downright baffling...unless the powers-that-be simply don't think this is the next big thing.

 

Thoughts

A few thoughts that haven't been raised:

--Recall that this tourney resulted in televised final tables, something that the other two (Barona and Tunica) did not. If that results in any value for a player is open to debate and probably depends on whether said player wants to write a book one day(!), but it could also result in other hard-to-precisely-define value like invites to tourneys as a "top" player. First place also brought entry to year end Barona tourney. So, regardless of prize pool determined by number of players, there were other benefits exclusive to this tournament.

--Something else this event had over Barona for one was SnGs. The value of SnG's is pretty well documented in this earlier comment from Ken S. I think, and certainly also expanded the appeal (and added the possibility of lowering the entry cost) of the event:

http://www.blackjacktournaments.com/bb/showthread.php?p=27223#post27223

The lack of SnGs at Barona has the "early out" player standing around waiting for wild card draws with little else to do (except play sub-par-rules BJ).

--A lower entry fee would drive more players in which may create the same prize package and more buzz, something useful to the fledgling UBT. Maybe something in the middle between Barona's fee and $2,700.

--I agree 100% that both the Palms' and Venetian's marketing efforts for UBT tourneys have been pathetic. Why they don't want to capitalize on the fact that something that is on national television is happening also at their casinos is beyond me.

--I personally like both Barona and the UBT stops and will play all when I can (which unfortunately isn't often with my schedule). After all, it is still my personal opinion that the UBT is the best thing to happen to BJTs in a long time: If only some of the partners and entities involved could get all the parts of the machine synched up and humming better they could really make it go. Everyone knows that the shot across the Internet bow hurt a key piece of the model, but there are still alot of other good pieces there.

Finally a question I asked on another thread: Now that the Palms UBT stop is history, does anyone know if the Thurs. weekly there will continue for some kind of prize and if so, what? I see it is still listed going forward on the calendar here.

 

Concerning UBT and the results of The Palms

Having 62 players for a tournament event with that type of entry fee. Is that good or bad? On the outset I would think it was ok, in fact with 19% chance of making a final table I would have had better odds then what I faced in Tunica.

On the other hand let’s look closer at the numbers shall we?

Team UBT – 13 members
The Palms winners – 8
Internet qualifiers – 2
UBT entries from Washington – 5
TBJ pro’s (non Team UBT) – 14
Ken Smith
Joe Pane
Michael C
Robert Blechman
Adriana Jade
John Ressman
Norm Sheridan
Big Chuck Gorson
Skip Samad
Ace Donovan
Blair Rodman
Previn M
Stubbs
Surrender Y (?)

For a total of 42 of the 62 players. So in reality UBT only got 20 “other” players to commit to The Palms. That alone to me speaks volumes. UBT – a nationally shown TV show only draws 20 people to one of their events? What’s going on?

SaberJack brought up some great points – the sit and go’s BEFORE the tourney are, in my opinion, the biggest and best reason to attend a UBT stop. In fact that is the major reason I haven’t flown to Barona to play in a UBT circuit event. Coast to coast for possibly one round and BAM! Value or no value it just isn’t right!

Something needs to be done if UBT is to succeed. The May 12-13 circuit event doesn’t have enough promotion either.

The WSOB demonstrated that if you have guaranteed prize pool players with $ will come out to support the event. Now that is a small player pool to be sure but if UBT insists on large prize tournaments they should sit up and take not.

Secondly – where are the UBT representatives? WSOB has Kevin, Cherokee has Eric Woods, and Blackjack21.com has Bear, and so on…

My point is people/players want to talk to someone and have their questions answered and addressed. Let’s face it UBT crammed Aruba in at the last second. St. Kitts was done quickly too. The “build-up” to The Palms was anti-climatic to say the least. I mean we don’t even know if UBT will be on CBS again. (I hope it is but when??? May, August, October?)

UB is already advertising Aruba for a week of poker in September 2007. A while back I asked on of Team UB members if they thought EBJ would be there and HE didn’t know. He assumed it would but…

This isn’t a slam on anyone but Joep has been the “quasi” spokesman for UBT and unfortunately the information changes but when the initial schedule for UBT was announced it sounded grand – one tournament stop a month, etc. What is left is a shell of what was predicted.

Now don’t think for the least bit that I’m happy about it – I’m not. I want to be able to play EBJ but there just aren’t enough opportunities available. What I want to know is why? To Russ Hamilton, the “founder” of UBT (as I understand), why not “give away” the licensing of UBT for 12 months to regional casino’s to get more people playing it?

What would be great is if one or two casinos in the major casino markets had Friday night SNG’s like the Venetian. The Horseshoe could host them in Tunica, Borgata in AC, IP in Biloxi, Barona in San Diego, Atlantis in Bahamas, etc.

At each UBT SNG have a flat screen playing UBT trailers and music. Get people pumped about playing EBJ!

Come on guys – don’t let EBJ die on the vine.

 

A Ploppy's View of what UBT needs to ponder

OK, I'm just going to ramble stupid here, drawing on experience at promoting and participating in very high levels of another sport. UBT's got a tiger by the tail, but there are a few things being done terribly wrong.

First of all, the point was made that there's not enough "side action" at UBT's big-ticket events. You betcha that's true. When I used to travel all over creation to bowling tournaments, sometimes the money available in the late-night pot games was almost as juicy as the tournament itself. Let's look at the example of The Super Hoinke, a match-play elimination tournament that happens every Thanksgiving weekend in Cincinnati. No touring professionals allowed, but it was wide-open other than that. Bring your shoes, buddy, let's get it on. The all-night pot game action was legendary. Any entry level from $20 per man per game up to $1,000 was readily available. I don't remember how many lanes that house had - about 66 - but they were ALL humming all night. If you bombed out early in the "main" there were sweepers (side tournaments) and pot games galore. And the bowlers came in droves. They were pulling in over 1,000 bowlers, good shooters and wannabe's, every turkey day weekend. UBT could certainly offer some side action, too. And I don't mean the tables in the casino, either. Remember the movie "Color of Money" - a sort-of-sequel to Paul Newman's "Hustler" pool movie? The real money is in the back room.

Now the Super Hoinke is drawing a lot less than they used to. What happened? They got cocky and started raising the price of the main entry. It started at $300 for a shot at about $25K. Once it became a big success, the fee began rising by $50 every year until it hit $700. The fringe players and hotshot league bowlers who made up the meat of the field began thinking that they had better things to do with that money than spend a major holiday away from their families - in exciting Cincinnati, no less. By the time you added in motel, food, gas (etc) it became a $1,000+ weekend, and that was both hard to swallow for the average guys plus it was mighty hard to make that up in the pot games. Entries started falling, and now it's a mere shadow of what it used to be. It simply got too expensive. Guys who knew they were swimming in mighty deep waters were not willing to take a potshot for that kind of scratch.

Now, how does this all relate to UBT? $2700 is too much. All you're going to get at that rate are the top pros and the sponsored players, plus the occasional wealthy individual who doesn't care about $2700. Perhaps for two or three special tournaments a year, that would be OK, as would having a strong system of win-a-seat events feeding the prize pool. I don't know the particulars, but I've got a strong suspicion that it's quite onerous for a casino to become involved with UBT. Hell, JoeBob's Casino and Feed Store can run a Hold 'Em tournament and send someone to the WSOP, but JoeBob can't run a UBT-style win-a-seat event without some kind of official approval from UBT. Right? If I'm wrong about that, feel free to fire away. Perhaps UBT can get high-handed about things if & when they really do become a huge success, but right now they can't get 100 players to show up at one of America's premier casino resorts. Let Joe-Bob run his event. Let him run any form of EBJ that he likes! Who cares? He'll send a player to a UBT big event on a paid entry no matter how the lucky chump won the spot.

With the double whammy of that large entry fee plus very little side action to give the illusion that the entry fee can be recovered "in the back room," my own two cents' worth is the entry fee needs to drop. A LOT. You'll never get the fringe players taking a potshot for that much. As an example, I was at the Palms since Deb had the Internet seat at the final table. However, I wasn't about to pony up $2700 to jump in waters that deep (for me). For a grand or less, I probably would have tried it. The entry fee has to be something that the little guy can see risking on a longshot, or you won't have the little guys pumping up the prize fund. When the Super Hoinke was charging maybe $400 to enter, they were paying $100K for 1st and $50K for 2nd. When they raised it so high, entries dropped so dramatically that they could only pay $30K to the champion. For UBT, 400 people @ $450 beats the hell out of 62 people @ 2,500. The prize money is about the same after backing out increased expenses for a field that large, but the "buzz" created cannot be bought at any price. And "buzz" brings in corporate sponsors.

Told ya I was going to be rambling a bit.

 

I think

the way its looking the "circuit" events at places like Barona and Venetian are invite/open events. What wont be obvious is how many spots will be open to each side. For the open players I think it is very important to demand early registration by phone and debit/credit card. (Well maybe demand is too much) When I call a casino asking about the game one thing I want is a phone registration. That way if I travel hours I dont get disappointed.

 

Ps

I know Barona, at least, offers pre registration.....

 

UBT Troubles

I have been playing this game passionately every single day on the website UBT.com and have found out that it is not heart-warming for the average joe/American to consider paying $2700.00 just to play in a blackjack tournament. I am in total aggreement with Ken Smith's first comment. I mean, that's a months worth of my salary. What is the gaurantee in even getting something?

Another point I want to add is that I reside in Pasadena,CA and live not too far from Agua Caliente and Hustler Casino. These Casinos host bi-monthly and weekly tournaments. What makes a passionate player as myself spend money on aifare or a car rental, hotel room, and the other fun stuff that Vegas brings? Nothing. The entry fee is $2700.00 for the Hilton and the entire trip will run me up into $4000.00 easily. That is crazy and foolish to me.

Now, another point I wanted to add is that if you look at the last issue of High Roller Magazine it points out how many casinos there are in California versus Vegas. There are about 140 in California and 300-400+ in Nevada. My goodness....There is no way I could be remotely interested in visiting Las Vegas when I get that feeling and atmosphere here in beautiful Southern California. I do very well in tournament play. As a matter of fact my first tournament was on my first cruise last year in October and I won my first ever tournament. Get this people. The buy-in was $10.00 and I won $500.00. Yes, and I think there were more people in attendance than the 60+ that was at the Hilton. Isn't that odd? This intelligent player does not see the self-gratification of spending that type of money in an economy(especially California) that is plagued by high gas prices continuing to rise, consumer confidence on the low, housing slump, and very little job growth in America. Don't even mention that the country is even in a bigger deficit when it comes to funding the war in Iraq. That will deter me from spending that type of money alone for a useless tournament.

Lastly, you will continue to get a low turnout as long as the above occurences are happening in the country as a whole. God bless you all and good luck online at UBT.com. I will see you all there tonight.