Player forfeits to help his friend with the button

Maybe not the fault of the staff...

It seems surprising that Player A even expected the situation to be handled in the way it was, suggesting that the procedure is perhaps written into the rules.

 

Ken,

I would agree that they should not have let him step out in such a manner. I have never seen anyone try to hand in their chips if they still had a minimum bet available. Of course I've also never seen anyone try either. I'm guessing it took the dealer by surprise?

Anyway the rules I have always seen is that you are in the game as long as you could make a minimum bet and have never seen this addressed otherwise.

Now, given the fact that this 3rd player was so far behind maybe if in hand 28 he doubled down with that $500 on his hard 20 (or whatever made hand he might of had) to knock himself out, I'm guessing that would have been ok by the "rules".

Pill

 

Was it trickery, or did player A knowing that he could not win, just decided to leave the game at that stage because he did not want his play to interfere with an important last hand for the other two players and may have not thought about the button?

I would have thought that if his chip were still in the circle, then cards should have still been dealt to him regardless that no playing instructions would have followed.

Andy

 

I agree that the button should have stayed on Player A since there was a bet in the circle. Even if Player A left the table and therefore cannot win, the rules in many (if not most) of the tournaments I've played state that if the player is not in his seat to make a playing decision then his bet is taken by the dealer and that player's cards are removed from the table. That implies that the first 2 cards are dealt to the player as long as a bet is in the circle. I think the dealer made an error and Player C should have objected to moving the button. Each player needs to look out for his own interests.

This points up a major problem with Blackjack Tournaments. Unlike poker were tournaments are basically played like live games, BJTs are different than live games. Nether the dealers or the pit personnel are properly schooled in all the rules. Damn, even the tournament director has to occasionally "make up" a rule to cover a unique situation. And even then, that "made up" rule usually does not find it's way into the rules for the next tournament.

In my experience, I have occasionally (rarely) pushed my minuscule bankroll next to the betting circle (not in the betting circle) and announced "concede". It never fails that the dealer did not know what to do so I just tell him "it's the same as me walking away from the table and that's covered in your rules". Then the dealer calls the pit to make sure he's handling the situation properly. That's an example of the dealer not being aware of all the rules.

 

99.9 % of poker tourneys are played under TDA (tournament directors association) rules. These cover most things that can happen in a tourney, it is too bad that BJ does not have a similar association to standardize the rules.

 

There already is one (TBJPA) with some very solid and fair rules, but the casinos do not want anyone peeing in their pool. Most of 'em are clueless, looking at BJT's as being on the same skill level as a slot tournament, so any real effort to have decent rules is meaningless (to them). If they adopted standardized rules, then they wouldn't have their current freedom to do put in any idiotic rule they wish. For example, 5x BJ for one hand only during a round at MGM Detroit's monthly.

As far as the original situation, I agree that it was handled very poorly by the staff.
That's collusion between the two player-friends, plain and simple.

 

Played very badly...

As a TD, I would have made Player A return and play out his hand or left the button as is and dealt out the hand and forfeited Players A bet after all three hands had been fully dealt out. After all Player A did make their bet before deciding to foreit their hand. Then deal hand 30 to only the remaining two players.

If Player A refused to return to the table I would have penilized them from getting an invite to the next free event, but we all know a casino host won't do that if it is one of their big players. Where as a big player complains about one of us because we out play them and we'll be banned from future events, (sad but true).

 

I agree

I agree with you 100% Ken. All Player A had to do was bet all in the hand before (Hand 28) and bust out and avoid this issue completely.

As far as where I've been, just trying to make it in this economy. Unforunately it hasn't allowed me to go play in any tournaments in sometime.

Even the local Oklahoma tournaments have been turn to crap. Winstar tournament went from $550 entry in year 1 to 20 hours need to quailify for year 2 to play every Wednesday (all day at .50 cent ante) and hope you get picked, about 16 free winners (that's a possible $800 or higher entry "IF" you even lucky enough to get picked).

The new Choctaw casino has tried a number of tournaments with the newest worst then the last. I don't think they have hosted one longer then 3 weeks (suppose to go 3 months) because they are so poorly designed.

*See my post under ways to improve tournaments!

 

Standard BR rules apply

I usually attend just about every BJ tournament here on the coast and have been playing in tournaments for the past 15 or so years and was at the Beau Rivage watching the tournament play and happened upon this “scenario” due to the fact that it was the ONLY table left with players on it for that particular round…SO I will give u the specifics. First of all there were 4 players at the table NOT 3. The bankrolls are as follows in betting order as well as the order in which the cards are received: Player 3 -$3,000 , Player 4- $45,000 player., Player 1- around $ 2 or $3,000 and Player 2 $20,00.. And it is hand 29 and the button is on player 3 so he is suppose to start the hand…however player 3 makes a string bet -which we all know is NOT allowed in tournament play at the Beau Rivage- and the dealer hands back all of the players money EXCEPT the bottom chip. The player gets angry and throws in ALL his chips and leaves the game stating that he’s out. The dealer then calls the supervisors over and explains what happened and why the puck is being moved and they all agree that the puck is to be moved to the next player to start the hand. Well I myself wondered why the puck was moved and as it was explained to me and as stated in the tournament rules : Rule # 1 “All standard Beau Rivage Rules APPLY” which means that the puck was moved because the dealer couldn’t deal to a hand if no one was there to play the hand. So now there are 3 players left and player 4 starts hand 29 because of this. Since STANDARD BJ RULES DO APPLY I feel as if the dealer and the staff were correct with their decision…in standard play, the dealer NEVER deals to a spot where their isn’t a player, the money is pushed back and the hand continues…if there is such a casino PLEASE let ME know so I wont play there!!!

 

Shot taker!

You cant deal a hand to someone that is not sitting there....who would make the decision on the hand even if it was dealt out? That doesn't make any since..Its sounds like this person was not going to be happy with any decision that was going to be made... So does the squeaky wheel always get what they want? I guess if you cry loud enough..huh? i see it as the dealer was not at fault ... they went by the rules... get over it!

 

Laughable !!

Just reading some of these replies to any kind of scenario I just think it's funny that the comments from Mr.Pill and TXtourplayer say about the player who want to quit the game, whether the first or last hand,that the people in charge must "make" the player play the hand.Now how exactly would you do that ? ......put a gun to his head !!.......hold his cardcounting wife, standing behind, for randsome !!........ or just bring in the back room heavies and beat him into playing in the tourney !!!!.....LAUGHABLE !! ......just saying !!:laugh:

 

For 12 13, and 14

Look. Printed tourney rules are # 1. All usually refer to "Casino" regular rules if not covered under tourney print out, or as a way for "staff" to make a decision.

However, other than a standard rule of "if player doesn't have enough for min bet," player is eliminated and not dealt a hand.

"Standard" procedure for a player having min bet is to deal a hand to that spot. Even if player doesn't bet, ie forfeits, refuses to play, whatever. The hand is dealt, but not played out and scooped in. As stated earlier, the same as a player showing up late, or in some cases being allowed to excuse self from table, (rare), in which case hand is dealt and scooped. Or player not being able to leave table without penalty of being eliminated in which case house rules dictate whether a hand will be dealt to that spot or not.

A player sitting at the table at the time of the deal and making, or attempting to make a bet constitutes a hand to be dealt.

A famous poker pro threw his black jack hand into the "ocean" and walked away from the table during a bj tournament, but then the hand had already been dealt. So I should have stopped with the previous paragraph.

 

Player Forefiets!!!

I am a local here on the coast and I attend all of the tournaments at the Beau Rivage . I happened also to be an on looker due to the fact that it was the last table in that round of play to have players on it . The scenario that Ken created for discussion was a great one however it was not the case .... I observed 4 players and not 3. The player made an illegal string bet and the dealer then gave the player back the excess chips except for the bottom chip and continued on with the betting sequence at which time the player threw his chips in and left the table .One of the staff members chased him down and told him told him he needed to finish the hand or he was disqualified and he said he forfeit. At that time a supervisor was called and said to move the button and continue the hand . The players began to get angry bc they said that was going to effect the betting sequence for the last hand, well if some one does not show up for the first 5 hand they don't deal cards to those spots and that effects the sequence, i have never in my 12plus years ever have heard of dealing to a spot without a player I mean really !!!!! I hope they don't start that. What a crock. If they want to place blame they should find the guy that forfeit!!!!!!! If I had been a player on that table and they did deal cards to a spot without a player I would have called the GC immediately!!!!!

 

Norm , I'm NOT really sure what BJ tournaments u play in BUT none of the ones i play in here on the coast deal to a spot where there is no one playing. And a player has to have a min of $500 OR that player is disqualified and the game continues...no cards are dealt to that spot, the remaing money is locked up and the game continues. As far as a player showing up late- Yes money is taken from that player's bankroll ($500 per hand up to 5 hands) BUT NO CARDS ARE DAELT TO THAT SPOT!!!

 

A deal n scoop as you call it is not allowed in a BJ tourny b/c you have to play every hand or you are DQ. And has no one taken in to account that those scooped cards can effect the out come? Hello !No one is that skilled! Can you imagine the crying if that (Scooped) hand was a black jack !!!!!

 

Sorry norm

Sorry BUT your statement - "Standard" procedure for a player having min bet is to deal a hand to that spot. Even if player doesn't bet, ie forfeits, refuses to play, whatever. The hand is dealt, but not played out and scooped in. As stated earlier, the same as a player showing up late, or in some cases being allowed to excuse self from table, (rare), in which case hand is dealt and scooped. Or player not being able to leave table without penalty of being eliminated in which case house rules dictate whether a hand will be dealt to that spot or not" is incorrect for tournament play at this particular casino. It's TRUE that a player MUST have a min bet to deal to that particular spot, BUT if a player DOESN'T have a min bet of $500 he/she is disqualified no hand is dealt to that player/spot. And as far as a player showing up late, no cards are dealt, the only thing that happens is that $500 is taken for every hand missed up to the end hand # 5 and if the player isnt in his/her seat by the beginning of the 6th hand he/she is disqualified and the money is placed back in the rack...SORRY NORM!!!

 

All

I'll take or coincide most of your points, except, a bet was made. A hand is dealt. Player not there. Hand is scooped.