Questionable "PRO" play I have spotted.

Ok...thats it....

Im outing every questionable play I see a so called Pro make and Im starting this thread to do that.

These guys are getting invites to big money free games and appearing on TV and calling themselves pros but Im seeing questionable play and Im wondering if in fact it is maybe secret strategy or simply stupid play.

Im gonna name names that I see on Bet 21...and the play....hopefully us pee ons...can learn something discussing the benefits of the noted play...

Im gonna start this topic with something I noticed twice this past week...

In the 10 dollars entry ...500 dollar guarantee game earlier this week KrazyKanuck went all in on the first hand...he is a paid pro for UB/Bet21 site I believe...

Someone at the table mentioned ploppy play and even though no mentioned a particular play or a name...he felt the need to come on and defend the move as good strategy...lol...I couldnt resist so I chimed in that maybe he should have his GF.. Monica Reeves give him a few lessons...lol he laughed and said he taught her everything she knows....hummmmm

Tonight (Sunday) I enter the 8PM 20 dollar ...1,000 guarantee game and notice Debo34 at the table....Not sure about him but I have read a little and think he is an invited "pro" as well ...might be poker dude ....not really sure.

On the second hand he also goes all in... lol....

Of course on both occurances they make the hand and that sparked a catch up game that resembles a TEC point game...a game that is only lottery like and frankly not all that much fun but whatever....

My question is ....Are these so called 'Pros" making stupid mistakes or do they know something we should be taking a closer look at?

I like playing these guys that are BJ experts because I can learn some things....but Im thinking these poker guys are just learning themselves and so maybe that is why they play this way...

I would surly agree with KrazyKanuck that going all in is a good strategy but only if you have no skills at the game...then this is a good bet and maybe your best shot to win.

We dont see "Legend" Ken E ever playing UB/Bet21 even though he is a pro member....maybe he doesnt want to reveal any of his trade secrets...;-)
Still his surrender in the Legends game.. along with an amazing pull by the dealer makes a strong case for the luck factor...

Im not starting this thread to trash anyone ..rather if we see something questionable or that we dont understand maybe it would be a good idea to point that play out in this thread and then we can discus the pros and cons of the play.

Im gonna use the "pros" in my examples because they are getting the invites to these easy to win, place, and draw games because they have a superior game supposedly.

And while I hear about these legends and all the accomplishments they have had .....which could be mostly works of fiction and a good publicity agent btw...and when I see a misplay then I think these "Pros" are fair game as topics to help us regular good guys and gals better our game by discussing the play.

So ... first question....Can it ever be a good idea to go all in on the first hand as some "PROS" playing at Bet21 site have done in the last week?

My 2 cents says its a dumb bet.

 

Both KrazyKanuck and Debo are well-established poker pros. They are simply dabbling in BJT's for entertainment and a break from poker, I'd guess, and I certainly wouldn't call them EBJ "pros."

My observation is that most poker types tend a little more toward big or even "all-in" bets, that is until they really catch on to the more successful strategies. Annie Duke plays BJT's pretty well from what I've seen--word is that Hollywood Dave has been giving her pointers though...

 

Ken E. on Bet21

I have seen Ken E. playing few times (at least 4 -5 times) sit n go's on Bet21and guess what - his strategy is to go all in on the first hand.

I am starting to think that if this is the best strategy for WORLD BLACKJACK CHAMPION, than anybody else can aplly that too.

 

Devalues TBJ

This is part of my argument as to why this "TBJ is like poker" marketing strategy is weak and may ultimately do more damage than good. Barring a few, I don't believe the poker players have really bought into EBJ/TBJ. Anybody seen Phil Hellmuth, Johnny Chan, Phil Laak, etc. playing anywhere? Have any other unaffiliated poker pros decided to give it a go based on other poker players recommendations?

Having said that I did post many moons ago that I thought that any growth in internet TBJ would lead to a change in the style of play which will eventually filter down to B&M casinos as it has with poker. With a theoretically unending number of games available, where you can simply play another S&G when you bust out of one, players may chose a more aggressive betting strategy in the hope that getting a large lead will give them an advantage. Going all-in on hand one will see you bust out on that hand 48% of the time. The rest of the time your BR is either the same or doubled up. Say you started a tourney with one of the players having twice the BR you did; how much of an advantage do you think they would have over you and the rest of the field? How much if they were also a skilled player? In addition I would say that although there are definitely more people to play TBJ with online there aren't masses. Sure we can get hundreds to play the freerolls but get them to dip into their pockets and play a "proper" game and there's a deadly silence. Yes I know it's early days (I've said so myself) but I say TBJ is NOT poker, never will be, and it can stand on its own as it is!

Just some thoughts really and I certainly wouldn't advocate the all-in approach. But I do think that as TBJ grows online the B&M tourneys may start to see some different playing styles amongst the entrants and they may well be successful.

Cheers

Reachy

 

Reach

In a way EBJ devalues TBJ because it rewards the plopping players. The insertion of the secret bet and multi elimination hands greatly increases the need for luck which in turn makes it more of a solid play to go all in first hand or even any hand 1-7. The pure placing rate in EBJ is .28xx probability while plopping all in carries .48xx probability with the .48 negating the secret bet and earl elimination luck factors. In regular TBJ if you have a plop win, it is very important to realize many times plops dont keep plopping, you have 15-30 hands to work it off. In EBJ you have 7 hands after the first hand plop or less for plops post first hand. So, a plop win in EBJ has solid value. At least this posting will give FG something to do today!

BTW, what if someone plops all in at hand 7 via two step progression? Is it a plop or is it a way good play?

 

Stone

My point isn't related to the rules of EBJ or how it is played. I've seen similar plop strategies adopted on the non-EBJ sites as well as bet21.com. If bet21 had used a TTBJ format the plopping/wildcat issues would have been the same, no doubt. I'm questioning the poker-oriented marketing strategy.

Ploppy play is defined more by who's doing it rather than the actual play itself, so to ask whether a 2 step progression is ploppy misses the point and is unanswerable. Even the best players need to make a move sometimes and a 2 step progression offers a better chance of success than a single all-in bet.

We clearly aren't going to agree and the pros and cons of EBJ so lets just say we agree to disagree and leave it there.

Incidentally I dislike the term "ploppy". It may by a British thing but ploppy/plopping has faecal connotations

Cheers

Reachy

 

The term

Ploppy. I guess its a term of degradation classification or maybe even prejudice. Most every game of BJT or EBJ requires we plop it down to catch that inevitable hot seat that wins hand after hand. EBJ just requires it more often because acts of desperation are more frequent

 

Rando the BJ Slut!

Rando,

Let me give you my .03 on the subject about BJ pro’s. Firstly lets set some ground rules shall we?

1. How do you define BJ Pro? As a newcomer to the TBJ world my definition is this: I’ve seen them on TV in a BJT or a BJ commercial.
2. How do you define appropriate play?
3. Should BJ Pro’s be giving advice?

My personal experience is this: I’ve played against the following “Pros’”:
Debo, PoKerHo, Annie Duke, Ken Smith, Kevin Blackwood, Robert Blechman, Monica Reeves, Hollywood Dave, Michael C, Dave Matthews, Anthony Curtis, Joe Pane and Phil Helmeuth. My apologies to another other “Pro” that I may have neglected to mention.

Each and every one above has beaten me at one time, and several of the above players have beaten me SEVERAL times. I could do into details about each of their playing styles, but I don’t want to reveal my profiles in a public setting.

Let me tell you about what happened to me at a table with 3 of the above pro’s yesterday. On hand 3 one unleashed a “bomb” (bet with 5 digits). On hand 2 another pro joined in. On hand 4 all 3 pros were lobbing “bombs” and I thought, “I’d better get on board so I don’t miss this train.” Bottom line – all 3 pros and myself were gone before EH1! I got sucked into THEIR game plan and against a hot dealer it was a disaster.

As far as “right playing” styles, well what is the standard? Are you, Rando, going to set the EBJ Gold Seal of playing style? What is the limit that you are allowed bet on hands 1-8? :laugh: Personally I don’t think there IS a “standard” playing protocol as no one has written the book – YET! (Hint Ken )

Now back to the pros – I kind of feel sorry for the “Big Names”. I was playing at a table with Phil Helmeuth and boy the observers didn’t stop peppering him with questions, hellos, etc.. I’ve seen the same happen with Ken Smith, PokerHo, Monica Reeves and especially Annie Duke. It was distracting for ME – imagine how THEY feel. Now here’s the funny part. In the beginning I was one of “those people”. Whenever I would play a table and saw the “celebrities” I wanted to chat away! I got “offended” when they didn’t chat back! Now I know why! Right in the middle of figuring out how to take the high, preserve the low and jump from BRL to BR1 someone pipes in with, “Did your pair of Queens win that table?” LOL

Having said that, the pavaratazzi are the price they pay for fame! Also every time their names pop up they have these huge bulls eyes painted on them. They may not even be BR1 but all the other players treat them like that! So when you see erratic play and behavior maybe THAT is why. In addition I would suspect that most of the “Pros” have more than one account so that they can play incognito when they don’t want the fans stalking them! Just MY assumption.

For example with Hollywood Dave and I. Whenever we play together I just can’t help myself from talking smack! It’s like putting an alcoholic in a liquor store or taking someone from “The Biggest Loser” and putting them in a Godiva Chocolate Factory. You KNOW what the results are gonna be! :joker:

Now, as far as playing against the “pros” is concerned I’m all for it. It gives us, the novices, a chance to test our skills in a rather controlled environment. It brings competition to the table. Unfortunately for the “pros” there really isn’t any incentive for them. Lets take Kenny E for example – The Legend. (KETH for short). He’s an author, has a web site and teaches players for profit. NOW KETH has a title befitting his credentials.

From KETH’s point of view, why SHOULD he play you Rando? What’s in it for him? Would you like to play him on a $200 SNG? I doubt most of us novices have that kind of money to throw around. Do you think, THE LEGEND, would stoop to a lowly $10 SNG? Once again, what happens when Rando, the BJ slut, beats THE LEGEND on the last hand because the dealer draws BJ? I’ll tell you what, Rando (i.e., you) would come on THIS forum and crow about his great victory and start asking why YOU weren’t invited here and there and stirring up trouble all over a measly $10 SNG. (Admit it you would )

So KETH has to make VERY limited appearances and keep THE LEGEND alive. Supply and demand right? Let’s face it Rando, if KETH were playing every night in the $20 tourney and you beat him where is the mystic? The aura would vanish. So what happens to KETH’s stock and value? Get the idea?

Now on the flip side of the coin I am extremely bothered by the fact that on KETH website he states, click here to play against me – implying that, yes indeed KETH would be available for live games, or at least games in which you could watch. I’ve played numerous games and I have NEVER run into KETH. That is not to say he hasn’t played – just not when I’m there.

Remedy? Easy. I feel that Team UBT, including KETH, should put their collective heads together and develop a schedule in which they would be available for SNG’s games ($20 up to $100) at a very specific day and time. It would be similar to the BOUNTY play that UB promotes to the poker players. However you wouldn’t gain anything for “knocking out” the pro’s like you do in poker. It would just give us, the general public, a chance to play with the pros.

Will that happen? Probably not because Team UBT and Bet21.com are not one in the same. In addition, this is MY PERSONAL ASSUPTION, that Team UBT can do whatever they darn well please as long as they show up for the UBT sponsored events. During non-UBT events they’re on their own! So what is the incentive for them to show up and play you and me? I don’t know, except for the prize pools and that’s why you’ll see some Team UBT members playing in the $100 tourneys and $50 tourneys.

Rando, these are my personal thoughts and musing on this matter. As far as “outing” any “Pro BJ players” – hey let them be. The more people we have the better. What I would encourage is that when you see “ploppy” play from the “pros” bring the incidences here, change the names to protect the ploppy and lets talk and learn. I only wish there were more pro’s like Ken Smith who are willing to talk and discuss their play, techniques and strategies. In case I haven’t said it in awhile, thanks Ken!

 

My Thoughts

When playing EBJ for real money on Bet21.com I would never go all in the first hand and to date I never have thru hand 5. Every once in a while I have needed to go all in on hands 6 or 7 but it is not typical. Usually 2 or 3 people advance from each round and the all in is not needed that early.

Of course I'm opening myself up to be criticized for not being aggressive enough but it comes with the territory. I still like to come out of the starting gate betting small and wait till closer to the elimination hand to increase my bets. This strategy is working for me and in my defense I'm winning my fair share of the pot of gold out there.

I agree with Rando that all in on the first hand is a dumb bet.

 

We have a winner

Just heard that Maxwell has won a freeroll and will be playing at the Palms; well done!! I'm not sure how that fits into the whole debate here but that's got to be a score for the "skill" side.

Thrast - I use the same strategy as you more or less, especially on freerolls. I like to start to position myself from hand 5, 6 or 7 depending on position and BR. When players are going all-in all the time opposition betting has got to be the way to go.

Cheers

Reachy

 

Reach? Where are these free rolls the only one I have seen is Vegas?

 

freeroll

Not At The Palms Yet- Will Play On Line The 20th Of January To Possibly Go To The Palms Final Table- Still A Lot Of Work Cut Out For Me -a Little Luck Can Go A Long Ways:d :d

GO TO PLAY UBT.COM BARNEY
http://www.playubt.com/

 

Mistake

I made an error. I missunderstood a message and wrongly attributed Maxwell to the actual final table at the Palms. Apologies.

Cheers

Reachy

 

<<Now back to the pros – I kind of feel sorry for the “Big Names”. I was playing at a table with Phil Helmeuth and boy the observers didn’t stop peppering him with questions, hellos, etc.. I’ve seen the same happen with Ken Smith,>>

LOLOL, FG when Ive been quietly observing Ken you are typing away, smooch smooch

LOLOLOL

 

Not like I used to! Yes I am a chat-o-typist! But lately I'm taking more notes and chatting much less! Unless it's HD there.

The "Big Names" has a lot to put up with, and chatters can be a distraction, especially at certain times.

HD has learned how to utilize chatting to help him at certain times too! Anytime you get someone slightly distracted it may make them make a mistake!

 

The only thing worse than a flip flop is a flip flop suck up! LOLOLO

 

Rando,

Other factors to consider when playing online and seeing “pro players” drop bombs:

1. Are they playing multiple on-line games
2. Are they tired
3. Are they bored

I say this because since I have been keeping detailed records of my play I have begun to notice patterns. When I get tired I tend to bet higher. When I play multiple games my bets are more erratic. If I’ve just lost on hand 25 or 30 (3rd place) my next game I bet more liberally!

There are lots of reasons that you might observe play like that from any “BJ Pro”. After all they’re only human, like you and I – except for the masked yellow crusader!

 

Ok Fred,

First of all no....I dont feel sorry for the pros trying to get a little peace and quiet playing a friendly game online...they can get all the quiet play they want at the invite only 7 seat legend tournaments...

Phil Hellmuth, Annie Duke...etc make huge sums of money not only from sponsorship but also from book and cd and dvd sales...all purchased by whom??? The fans right?

I,ve played with Phil and Annie and all the others you have listed and I have beaten them all at one time or another...and they have beaten me...Im not here to crow about it....Im fine tuning me play just as they are...so I try different ideas and I certainly do it at the lesser stake tables...

Every pro has been gracious and frankly I am surprized at how often they will chat and answer questions...Scotty Nyugen(SP) (Win) is great fun just like he usually is on TV...and Annie and Phil have been open and great...as for the BJ Pros...well they arent that huge yet and most I dont even know...
I sat beside Ken Smith at a tournament in Canada and I can state he is a good guy and fun and its probably not an act and he is probably not a closet mean guy....but I dont have any problem pointing out a dumb play and nameing names...even Ken Smith BJ BUDA...

Legends....yes legends are usually based somewhat on mythology...

Why should Ken E come out and play at Bet 21?...He sent me an email linking his site that says I can play against him if I click "here" Hes a sporsored pro team member...he should do something to earn his free play and VIP invites....no he certainly doesnt have to play me ..but we all see guys like Ken S and A Curtis...and Hollwwood D ...they are putting it out there and playing and thus opening up their game so that I might learn a tip or two...this helps the game in the long run ....

Who has acheived the better win....winning a 7 seat legend event or playing through a field of thousands to win a shot at playing another thousand to win a free roll? Theres no doubt in my mind...

Sure Fred...playing while tired affects performance as does playing multiple games...last week ( due to the annoying pop up affect of this game) I doubled my 20 and stood on my 11 in another game(Gold palace had a great pop up that asked about a about to be made dumb accidential move) ...I cant have both games open w/o some overlap...but if someone questiones my erratic play Im not gonna defend it as a good strategy...

Back to my orginal idea...I think Pros are fair game....I think its fair to review their play and talk about it. Not only is it fair ...it is instructive to the masses and good for the game...and its good for the pro too ...keeps em sharpened up...and ready for the next big invite only event...

These US events EBJ should be very interesting...I hope they decide to tape some table play and not just final table play...I like when they do that with poker to show how a person earned his or her way to the final table...

Yes there are some notable names who offer great advice to the masses...Ken S, Joe P , Rick Jensen..etc...but how else are we gonna get info pryed out of these others guys??? Ask them politely at the table???I dont think so...

They are putting themselves out there as "pros"...they are reaping huge benefits in free rolls and invite only events and sponsorship...that makes em fair game in my mind....if the only time Im gonna hear from them is when their next book or cd is out...well ...Im not that patient!LOL

PS...someone mentioned they saw Ken E play online EBJ a few times and he went all in every time...maybe this is a good idea!!!!!... or maybe he didnt really want to play but was only fulfilling an obligation..???

 

Seat at Palms UBT

Barney, where have you been?? Is it possible you have never downloaded the playubt software and experienced the joy of a TEC Sit ‘n’ Go?

--jr

 

Please substantiate your claims. There is an assumption by S. Yama and RKuczek that EBJ favors aggressive betters, nevertheless it is their OPINION and not a universal truth as you claim.

Once again I disagree. The secret bet increases the need for TBJ players to analyze their opponents, profile their play and made an educated assumption of the bet. The secret bet doesn’t change the cards. The secret bet doesn’t add or subtract chips. Unlike the Burger King chip which allows you to change a card, the secret bet in no way, shape or form increases the need for luck. It DOES require skilled reads.

WHAT? What are these numbers? How did you come to these? So are you saying that when someone goes ALL-IN it negates a secret bet? I’m confused with this – please elaborate.

What is it with you and plopping?

Ok, lets assume the person sitting in seat #1 goes all-in on hand 1 and wins. Now it’s hand 2 and they are BR1 with 50,000 compared to 20-30,000 (just making assumptions on other players betting 5,000). Ok, so what? By elimination hand I don’t care if they have 100,000 or 50,000. Why? All I have to do is NOT be BRL.

If someone drops a bomb on hands 1, 2 or 3 and wins – good for them. I’ve seen in done in TBJT too! Does that mean everyone has to chase them right away? Heck no!

Now lets take that all-in better who has a max bet lead. If they go all-in next hand, THEN they are walking the ploppy line. But I’ll still cut them some slack. If they win hand 2 now they’ve got 75,000! At this point if they cut back to min bets and say to the others, catch me if you can – that person is NOT a ploppy! They are an aggressive player. That is no different than if I went to BJ21.com and bet max – won, bet max again and won then started betting min.

Well you’re right about one thing Barney, this gives me cause to stand around and scratch my head wondering what you are talking about!