Last May in Laughlin, I had some players upset that their were no limit on how high players could stack their chips. Well I really don't like restrictions, however stacks to high just slow up the game, so I think I came up with a fair rule I think everyone can live with. Unlike the WSOB or UBT where players have to keep chips in stack of set amounts, I will use what I call the "Sand Timer" rule! It is simply, NO stack of chips may be taller than the sand timers used on each table. The sand time is about as tall as 27 - 29 chips so it isn't an exact count. I can't think of any way that would be fairer to all the players. This rule will go into effect for the August TBJPA Laughlin events.
Interesting. I thought that the rules that everyone's stack sizes were a uniform height were one of the rules that the UBT got right. It seems that it allowed chip counting to have the proper role in the game it sohuld have instead of a huge factor. Just my opinion.
Have to agree with toonces on this one. Experienced players have a big advantage already with counting & remembering stacks, and calculating bets from that information. TBJ doesn't need to put the rookies at any more of a disadvantage than they already are. Rookies need encouragement to continue trying their hands at the game, and that's really a rather small thing to give up when all the other advantages for experienced players are factored in.
Disagree with All I don't like the sand timer rule for chip stacks or rules stating that chips have to be kept in uniform sizes like UBT. Chip counting is a skill that needs to be learned. I was a beginner once and was at a disadvantage to the expert chip counters. I worked on that skill and if I do say so myself I'm pretty good now, but not perfect. On that note I don't like chip counts going into the last hand. I can except the count with 5 hands to go, but would give that one up to if I could have my way.
Thrasht, while I agree with you that it's an important skill in BJ tournaments currently, I think it's a stupid skill that ought not to be so important in the game, and anyway to reduce that skill in the future should be looked into. I know that the people that are better at it would want to maintain their advantage, but it's hard to enjoy or concentrate in a tournament, when you are spending half the time bent over, squinting to read the gradations in the stack on the other end of the table. And it looks stupid too. It seems to me that rules like this make the game more enjoyable and put the focus where it belongs, on calculating the best bets. P.S. Would you want to be known as the "Premier chip counter in the game"? If not, it's probably not a skill to aspire to.
Trust me I hear both sides of the story I understand the argument both sides have in this debate. This is why I think the "Sand Timer" rule is fair. It still allows a player to stack their chips up without an acturate count, while controlling the players from stacking over 50 chips high in one color. Depending on the chips and timers the stack limit could change from table to table so it is a fair compromise to both parties involved.
chip counting is NOT a TBJ "skill" anymore than knowing how to make a baseball bat is a "baseball skill" that all baseball players should have - yes - you need to know the other players' chip counts to make proper bets and plays - and in baseball - you need a bat in order to hit - but no one would argue that players therefore should have to make their own bats! TBJ should be about skilled play - not facility at counting stacks of plastic disks - which has nothing to do with blackjack -
Counting is a skill... Even up at Durant, OK in their bi-weekly events, the players have learned the importance of proper chip counting. By knowing the other players chip counts gives a player the best chance at making the perfect bet. Now granted this can be done one of three ways: 1) posting totals. 2) stacking chips in easily countable stacks. 3) being able to count chips. I guess I am just from the old school, I prefer #3. I do believe it is not only a skill (good eye sight is a plus), but part of the game. Yes it is an advantage to some degree being able to count chips, but it is an advantage that anyone willing to practice can have. Now my idea about the sand timer is one to help both groups that like to count and those who like a set amount stacked. Basicly with this new rule, no one can stack chips over 30 chips high, (actually a little less).
I can see why Rick's trying to straddle the fence between the old school and the new. If he institutes chip stack requirements, the established players will likely revolt. However, RK is right. We hear so much talk about hoping that TBJ in general takes off like poker did. I hope so, too! Gotta try to make it more appealing to the rookies, though. Nobody wants them to try it, get discouraged, and walk away forever. That's such a little thing to give up. RFID chips would make it quite easy to accommodate it. Can anybody else name a sport where the players are expected to keep not only their own score, but everyone else's, too, at the highest competitive levels? Sure, golfers keep a card, but there are still huge scoreboards all over the course.
Agree to Disagree Thanks guys for your input. I'm glad to see this site is getting back to having healthy discussions without personal attacks. I value your opinions even if I disagree with them. I've played against every player who posted on this thread and I respect all of your play. Take care and I hope to see you all at a table soon. thrasht
I agree with Thrasht It is nice to have an adult discussions. No matter if the "Sand Timer" rule works out in the long run or not, the TBJPA will at least try it for the next two scheduled events (Laughlin and Seattle). Actually the TBJPA will try the 10 stack rule, for both stacking and betting, for both Laughlin and Seattle. Now after I get the feedback I'll see how well it worked. If nothing else I at least try to come up with new ways to improve the tournaments, some work (surrender cards and some don't), but at least I'm trying and willing to make the events as fair for all as possible. I'm sorry I can't please all the players all the time, but I do try to please the majority of the players most of the time. I thank all those who have been supporting the TBJPA /TBT through the first two events we have held and hope to see even more supporters at out future events. Our venues may not be the 4-5 Diamond hotel casinos, but everyone is more then willing to work not only with me and the TBJPA, but more importantly with the you (the players). I can only hope that we get more willing casinos to work with us and help build the TBJPA and TBT into a national tour where even more players can enjoy playing tournament blackjack and find the same enjoyment that so many of us have found in this great game. Thanks again to all my supporters and I hope to see y'all all in Laughlin next week.
I'm not going to expend a lot of energy here, since I don't plan to attend either of these events. However, the "sand timer" rule is not a compromise. It is simply a way to prevent people who want to obfuscate their chip size from being as devious as possible. Just out of curiosity, are people allowed to have their chips in a messy pile? What about a cityscape of chip stacks anywhere from 2-4 high? The point of the UBT rule is that if you see a chip stack, it is no more than 10 chips. If you see two chip stacks, the larger one is exactly 10 chips. The sand timer doesn't help here, since their stacks can still be any height and they can change it at will. Knowing that a stack is no more than 27 chips high is little consolation. Hell, why not rearrange your chip stacks anytime someone starts counting them. The anti-counting people have given actual logical arguments as to why this rule should change: - Good eyesight should not be a prerequisite for BJ tournament prowess - Making chip counting critical is an impediment to new players - Chip counting gives players in the middle of the table a silly advantage - It is easy to disrupt player's counts, even if it's unsportsmanlike - Having players squinting at opponents stacks during the game makes it less attractive to spectators or TV - Having stacks that spectators can't read makes the game less interesting - Online tournaments have shown that having clear chip counts does not take away from the game. - Instinctively, counting chips doesn't feel like a skill one should need to aspire to in order to play well. The only arguments I've heard on the other side is: - It's the way it's always been (and the corollary: I had to learn how, so should you) - Experienced live players don't want to lose their inherent advantage Neither of these are valid, logic-based reasons, so I'm curious if there are good reasons on the other side.
I'm with Toonces. I think the UBT 10-high (or 20-high) rule is the best situation. It's time to cut loose the old thinking about this in my opinion. Let's make the game approachable to new players.
I like your thinking on this, Toonces. A couple of years ago I pushed the idea that chip counting is not a skill that should need to be mastered to play TBJ. At the time, a number of hardliners gave me a lot of grief about that so I just dropped the subject. Now with the UBT rules apparently helping to solve this problem, I think it may be time to encourage casinos to follow the UBT lead on this matter. The TBJPA can lead the way - what do you say TXtourplayer?
I'm also 100% not in favor of the "Sand Timer" decision and having attended the May Laughlin event Personally observed only one player complain about another players chip stack. I'd be surprised with 40+ participants at Laughlin that even 5% requested a change in the TBJPA chip stack rules as this was not a universal problem in my observation and I either participated in or observed at least 80% of the SnG's or actual TBJPA sanctioned events. I agree completely with Toonces reasoning and await any posted responses that debate his post and sway my opinion. Perhaps as has been done in the past a poll should be added to this thread instead of an absolute statement "the next 2 tournaments will use the sand timer rule and THEN feedback will be evaluated", lets get player feedback prior to the event instead of after the fact to evaluate changes and not reverse changes after 2 additional events have been played.. If a poll is posted I suggest three options; 1) No change necessary 2) Sand Timer rule 3) UBT chip stack rule I understand all that may vote on this potential TBJPA "chip count" poll may not attend either the forthcoming TBJPA Laughlin or Seattle events but all that may vote are potential entrants in future events and their vote should be considered.
chip count the reason no one complained at the TBJPA events would be a) we are all experienced players and so have at least some skill at chip counting and b) we are resigned to having to do it and so don't complain about it my vote would be stack them in stacks of ten - by denomination
