Hello all, I've learned so much from this board and the people here now that I have gotten some more experience under my belt I thought that maybe I would share some of the things I've learned with the newer people coming in. Keep in mind that these tips are my opinion only and should not be taken as gospel. This is just coming from my personal experience. Tip 1: Slow and steady wins the race. Generally when you sit down at a tourney table you will come across three players: Player 1 - Betting the table minimum, seemingly biding his time until the last hand. Player 2 - Betting slightly higher than the minimum hoping to slowly work his way up into a lead without risking too much. Player 3 - Bet like a maniac right out of the gate and try to take an early lead. Player one, in my opinion, has the right idea. I always like playing conservative to start mainly for the reason that if you try and peck your way at a lead with small but non-minimum bets you're really just betting for the sake of betting. In the end you'll balance yourself out and probably lose a little, if you want to take a lead you want to it be with one single big bet. Flat betting 30 in a 10-500 limit tourney doesn't really do much for you. Player two is the guy who will spook you, though. He'll lead out with a big bet, and quite possibly take what seems like a big lead very early. After this happens usually one of two things will happen: #1: They'll put it on cruise control and coast into the last five hands. #2: They'll continue to bet like a crazy man and eventually come back down to earth. This player can appear very threatening, but you should not let him deter you. As long as you can catch him within one hand you have nothing to worry about. Let him have the early lead, he still has to play out all the hands you do. There's no need to catch him early, just relax and make a play for him in the last five or ten hands. Another advantage of betting small is that going into the home stretch of the last five or ten hands you will almost always be within striking distance. You won't be going into the lead very much but you will very rarely be so far out of it that you have no chance. Tip 2: If you make a move for the lead, do it in a single hand. This is gonna give you a great deal of stress, because it frequently requires a bet of half your bankroll or more, but in the long run you are far better off trying to take the lead in a single hand with a big bet than trying to chip away at the lead with a series of mid-level bets. Usually a trick I'll like to do it throw out half of my bankroll when I have a shot at the lead, even if I don't nessicarily need that much, because I personally like to have a little room to work with once I have a lead. If I lose I'll put out the rest of my money and hope to double up work my way back into the hunt, and if I win I'm in the lead, there's no other result, and no more hands I have to worry about, just one. This leads me to my next tip.... Tip 3: Pay attention to position. I never like to make my move unless I'm the last to act. I'll usually wait until the second-to-last time the button passes me to make my move. As that lets me have a lead going into the end if I win but still give me a puncher's chance at survival should I lose. I never like to make a move if the button is on me and I'm the first to act. If the button is on me it's normally a minimum bet or a maximum bet. Tip 4: Practice, practice, practice. Bottom line it's the only way you will ever improve. If you don't feel like ponying up money every time for your tournament experience. I'd suggest in investing in some tournament software. Wong's Tournament Blackjack or Casino Verite Blackjack (version 3) are two of the best you can get and will allow you to practice strageties on computer opponents for free (well, minus the cost of the software). I would also suggest trying to gather some buddies and playing a tourney with actual people, as nothing beats the thought process, or the unpredictability of a real, live person. Tip 5: Don't get discouraged Tournaments are very difficult to win, there's no two ways about it, and you will lose a fairly large amount of them, and almost every one you lose you will be second guessing yourself. The most important thing is that you play every tournament to the best of your ability, if you can say to yourself "I lost but there was nothing I could do, I did the best I could" then you should be happy. Just because you didn't come away with a check doesn't mean you gained nothing from the experience. Go over the round in your head, and try to determine if you could have done anything better. If you couldn't, then hold your head high and go into next month with confidence. If you could, then learn from that mistake and come back with the weapon of that knowledge. Well I hope this little schtick was helpful to someone, pros. Feel free to contradict everything I've said here as I'm sure you'd know better, but most importantly, more important than anything else. Have fun, after all, if you don't have fun while winning money, it's just like any other job, and regular jobs suck :joker: - Scorcho
Good TIps Scorcho very good tips - I started playing a few months ago - and have gotten in nine tournaments so far - all mini/small (largest $5,000 prize pool) - will be playing my tenth this coming weekend - a $10,000 tournament - and have been learning - as you have - one of the hardest things I had to catch on to - is how to deal with the agressive bettor - who - with a $500 starting bankroll - starts out and continues to bet $100 to $200 per hand - every hand - they can jump to a big lead early - and if you have a few of them at your table - you can see two or three get out fast - but - they will almost always keep up their agressive betting and come back to you later in the round - like you - I have started to make a lot of minumum bets - then make a move when I feel the timing is right - usually when I have position - or feel I can predict the betting patterns and usually when I can counter bet - if the other players go low - then that's when I'll go high - main thing is to realize that you will win a lot more tables if you are there to play the final hand - duh - just get to the final hand in a position to make some kind of bet that gives you an opportunity to advance - going high - going low - whatever - just get there and make your bet - also - I fully endorse the don't get discouraged advice - I finished second in my first tournament - put some money in my pocket - and got hooked on playing tournaments - total luck of course - next few tournaments - well - does "totally sucked gas" resonate with anyone - then suddenly I started making semi-final tables in every tournament - got to a couple of final tables - and won some money again - I was, and still am, obviously, learning - every tournament is a learning experience - best way to learn is to play - doesn't matter what size tournament - just play for real - against others - and learn from your mistakes - and realize that most players you'll go up against aren't really very good - a little skill and thought goes a long way - and don't worry if you get beaten by luck - last tournament I played - I got beaten at the semi-final table - by a woman who was clunking out 1/3 to 1/2 of her backroll every hand - and hit 5 blackjacks at 2-1 pays in 19 hands - I still had a chance to catch her on the final hand - but couldn't swing her - the luck will even out over time -
Slow and steady.... One thing I think the World Series of BJ is going to do is flood the tournaments with big bets. Because of the KO card you cant hold back, you must be aggressive or correlate with big betts, or risk the KO. This will implant a mentality into new players to go like hell and of course KO many on first 1/3 of hands, but the lucky "hot Seats" will scream out in front. If the person or persons in front start betting small you are in a world of hurt. Barney
Thanks Scorcho! Thanks for the advice Scorcho! Can I just ask, as a person who has only played online before I would be concerned about keeping track of chip stacks etc. How difficult is that and how would you improve that skill? I believe that the first time I play in a land-based tourney I'd be so fixated on chip stacks that I'd forget everything else! Cheers Reachy
Chip counting can be a funny thing, the way that I try to improve on it is to go out and buy a set of cheapo chips, the 8.5 gram solid color ones you always see are good for this. The most important thing is to make sure they don't have any markings on the sides, this makes it more difficult. Then just grab random stacks of them and set them at different distances and angles away from you on a table. You can take shortcuts by counting one stack and just measuring up the stack next to it and starting there. For example: You just counted a stack of 6 green chips and the red stack next to it is bigger, start at six where the green stack cuts off, it'll give you a little bit of a head start. If you're up for a really big challenge see if you can find those old super cheap plastic chips. Not only are they thin and completly solid colored they interlock, making the seperations even more difficult to distinguish. If you can count those you can count anything. Another thing you want to think about is how you stack your chips. You can't hide any chips from your opponents, but there's things you can do to make it a little tougher for them to count your stack. I like to keep my chip stacks as neat as possible. I also keep each color in one stack, no matter how but, if I have 30 reds I will try to keep them in one stack because it's much more difficult to count that way. I also like to try to keep my stacks a few inches apart to hinder people from using the shortcut I mentioned earlier. Also remember to take your time, if you don't have a specific timer at your table, then take your time and make sure you got it right. Don't worry about the other people complaning (and they will complain) just make sure you get it right and bet accordingly. You'll shut them up once you pick up the check :joker:
Reachy - counting chips is one of the hardest skills to learn I think - I am gradually getting better at it - but am slow and not always accurate - so I give myself some margin for error in my counting - I haven't found this to be a big problem yet - though will undoubtably lose a table sooner or later due to bad chip counting - I think the best practice here is to count chips in a real tournament under playing pressure - then you learn because you have real consequences when you screw up - each tournament I am finding it a little easier to do - and my counts are a little more accurate -
Good strategy advices. People should adopt these advices as a consistent playing strategy for every tournament. A step further is try to see the bet patterns of players, because sometimes it helps you to have some idea what they are going to bet if you must bet first and you're behind them. Also personally based on my little experience, if you know how to count card, don't count. I think it's a waste of time and a double edged sword. Remember that even if in a double deck and the count get juicy, there are still 6 other players including the dealer who have the same chance as you do to get a blackjack or twenty.
Thanks BUT.... Hey Scorcho, Thanks for the post. I enjoyed it very much. I've played BJ in the casinos but NEVER in a tournament. My first will be in two (2) days at the Gold Nugget in Vegas. I've got Hoyle software which has me playing against computers opponents and it's funny because I've been all three (3) of the people that you mentioned in your posting. Why? Well when the count is plus 10 I just go all in like I would at a regular table. Tournament play is definately MUCH different than regular table play. When playing against the house I use various money management systems and keep track of the count using all the various techniques to get the house advantage to a minimum - double decks/surrender/doubling after splitting. etc. My question to you is this - you just bet the minimum until when? hand 20 (assuming 30 hand) then haul ass when you're last to bet? What about the card flow? I mean using basic strategy we've got a 40% chance but all I hear about is betting and not card flow and count. What about the Wong technique of 1/7, 1/3 and all in? Sorry for the rambling but I guess I've just done all this reading (Wong, Einiger and others) that I'm too eager to try it out for real. Thanks for the post and please feel free to keep educating people like myself.
Counting and tournaments don't always go together. This is a debate that's been going on forever. Whether or not you should count at tournaments, I personally don't. Card counting is designed to give you an edge over a varying unit of bets over the course of a very long time. Short term the variance can be very great, and you should be devoting your brain power into strategizing on how you're going to pull into first. You can use counting to decide when to make your move (betting big on a fat count) but I much prefer position so no one can match you or take some other measure to keep the lead from you. As far as Wong's progression, it's great and I use it when possible (as long as a 7th or 3rd will get me in BR* position in one bet) There's a problem with the progression, more often than not it's hindered by the table limit. It only plays out as a mathematically powerful when you can actually put out all of your money if you lose the 1/3rd. For instance, this was a problem I ran into all too often: table limit is 300 max, say I have. 800 bucks, I make a bet of 1/3rd, which is about 265, leaving me with 535, and lose. Wong says I should push that 535 out there, getting me to 1070 if I win just like the previous bet would have, but I can't, because that's twice the table maximum, thus making the strategy much less powerful, if you have a super high table limit or the totals are very low then go for it, otherwise you have to kind of devise a new plan. On any given hand you have about a 44% chance of winning, which is less than favorable, however. That is why you bet conservativly, to give you as many chance to catch the lead as possible by making single hand bets. If you try to bet in slightly higher increments you're bound to lose and not get very far ahead. If you jump out to a huge lead then great you're ahead but you can't win the round in the first five hands so you either have to keep betting crazy and come back down to earth or sit there and wait for someone to catch you, and then you have to start betting crazy again anyways. Also, a side note. How long have you been counting? Because pushing everything you have on the table at a count of plus 10 is very unorthodox. There are many things that depend on that, how many decks are there? What is your bankroll? What incriments are you betting? (ten dollar units? twenty five?) You're on the right track by reading and learning more, it's just that statement to me seems very out of place, especially when you said that's what you do on a regular table.
Check this thread out Check this link out http://www.blackjacktournaments.com/bb/showthread.php?t=1651. It's to a thread I started on the Wong progression in tourneys. V. interesting! Cheers Reachy
great point Not having played in a tournament this was not something that I had encountered. The software I was using didn't have this problem that's why I've ordered the Wong software. Yes I have an unorthodox style. I usually bet $75 or $100 on a 5K bankroll and play at a $50 table with 1, 2 player max. Using basic strategy I count until it get to a 10 and greater then I will place anywhere from 25-50% of my bankroll. I also don't play for any longer than 60 minutes at a time. I actually set my watch when I sit down because I get dull after that time. I misstated about going "all in" (I've been watching too much WSOP lately). The percentage of what I put in depends on the true count. I usually play in AC with the 6 deck shoes and no hitting on soft 17. Thanks for the valuable advice it is very much appreciated.
Thanks for the link - you're right very interesting reading. It is a great learning experience. Good discussion with Hollywood.
You have the right idead about learning how to count but you are terribly overbetting your bankroll and your betting units are. It sounds to me like you read up on a few things and are just using counting to supplement your other betting strategies, if you try to do this on a regular basis you will go broke In order for you to consistently make money to play you need to have a large bankroll, (at least 10K) bet much smaller then you are now ($5 or $10 units, $25 at the absolute most) and you also must learn the variances on basic strategy. Discipline is a huge part of advantage play, I failed to have discipline today and overspent my bankroll and the variance took me out (more on the blog later tonight). I appreciate your enthusiasm and we all have that "get out there and start taking them down" mentality when we first start but the reality of it is that it's a grind process, you take a little bit over a long period of time. On a side note, you said you bet half your bankroll at a count of plus ten, is that a true count or a running count? Because I've played shoes and a TC of +10 is extremely rare to come by.
Forgive my writing skills Hey Scorcho, Love the blog buddy - keep up the good work there. The +10 is a running count with a true +1. I don't think you CAN get a true +10 count. As far as my betting style and counting - it's something of an amalgamation that I can come to live with. I WOULDN'T recommend it to ANYONE who has an aversion to losing their entire bankroll in a single night - like I have done. You see I'm NOT your typical BJ player here - I DON'T have patience to play for the long-haul. I'm a thrill seeker pure and simple. I do skydiving every other weekend and have been traveling to AC or vegas monthly for the past 12 months. My bankroll only needs to keep itself going. If I lose 5K in a weekend it won't hurt me - I've been very blessed in my professional business career so I treat BJ as a hobby. I got interested in actually making it pay for itself after reading Ben Mezrich, "Bringing Down the House". That got me started. I lost thousands at first on my own. Then I started reading many books, Keving Blackwood, Avery Cardoza, Vancura, Pappadopoulous, Cline, Hornik & Wong. [I'm not listing any titles because I'm NOT advocating these authors simply stating what I've read] Slowly but surely I found the truth that in 1-1 using basic strategy and finding the best tables (decks/surrender/splitting, etc.) the MOST important thing was money management. For me, tournament BJ is a totally different beast. I've been following the posts of others here (thank you reachy for the link to Hollywood's progression discussion) and I'm impressed by the level of professionalism and commaraderie. I've love it if anyone had any other books to read concerning TOURNAMENT BJ. My only regret is living in Florida there aren't ANY local places to play and to be honest the online isn't like the real thing. But hey any port in a storm right?
With regard to your question about my "going all in" with a +10 running count with a true count of plus one. At the $50 tables most of the table max's are usually $3K. Assuming I've got a $4K chip count and the conditions are right I'll bet $1500 right away and keep at it until the count drops. I love it when the dealers freak and the pit boss stands right next to them. In fact I instigate the conversations with them to slow the dealer down for my benefit. It helps my ratings & to be honest it is a rush. I also leave the table once I've doubled my buy-in. That's it. I'd rather get them to give me free steak dinners and shows and other goodies that I learned about by reading Pappadopolous then spending HOURS at the tables. Keep up the tips Scorcho PS Do you go to the casino's at Niagra Falls?
I haven't been to Casino Niagra yet, no, I mainly haunt TS. I can understand your casual attitude and wanting to play at a somewhat safe level while still keeping the excitement, however there's a few suggestions I could make: On a six deck shoe a running count of +10 is closer to a TC of +2, and that's at the bare start of the shoe, by the time you get to a running count of Plus ten it's more likely to be on the positive side of +2 and maybe even closer ro +3. Also keep in mine that at a TC of +1 you are barely at a positive advantage, and, depending on the rules, still at a slight disadvantage. If you're waiting for a fat count to shove alot of money out there I'd wait until +4, which is fairly common at the end of a shoe. Just some suggestions, but the way you're playing right now counting really gives you no advantage, so if you're playing for the social interaction and the comps then I wouldn't worry about the count at all.
counting I think betting more than 50% of your avg bet on a high count isnt a good idea. If the Aces are out of ratio with a high count good, +50%. Otherwise less than 50% or no increase from avg bet, just use a new basic strat. Increase your win to loss ratio is the key per session. And that means more wins than losses. IMHO
best newbie advice you'll get I'll add one more piece of advice for other newbies - this one the best you'll get - it's real simple........... THINK that's it - at the recent golden acorn tournament - I literally gave away my semi-final table - and the seat at the final table - and the money I would have won at that final table - by misplaying the final hand - actually - misplaying the final hand doesn't quite describe it - @*&$%@#(@*@^#%$ brain-dead misplay would be more accurate - I blew a very simple basic strategy play - and lost a table I should have won - turning a significantly better than 50/50 chance of winning the table into a much better than even chance of losing it - and I - of course - lost - as the cards worked out - I would have won the table if I had made the simple basic strategy play - the obvious play given the bets and cards out (players cards are face up - so no excuse that I misread the situation) - reason for the misplay - other than a brain-dead monent - I simply didn't look and think about the cards showing - and didn't take into account another player's likelihood of pushing the dealer - and what that would mean for my play - so I threw away the table win - If I had taken even a few seconds to observe what was actually on the table - and think through the implications and options - I would have made the right play - I didn't - I played on semi-auto-pilot - as the hand was developing about the way I had thought it would - and I goofed - This might be excusable if it was my first tournament - but it was the 10th one I have played - and I have had some success - with a 1st and two 2nds to date - so have a little experience and am not totally hopeless as a player - but I didn't think - I am finding that in every tournament I play - I am seeing situations - particularly in the final hands - that are at least a little different than I have run into before - and I have neither the skill level nor experience to play these hands on auto-pilot - maybe after a couple of hundred tournaments I will have accumulated the experience to recognize situations and best bets/plays from a quick look over the table - but I am a long way from that now - so - best advice for newbies - don't just react - take a few seconds to really observe, analyze, and think over options and outcomes - before you make your bet or play - even if the situation seems obvious - work out the probabilities and make sure you are making the best bet/play - the extra few seconds will be worth it -
