St. Ignace report - Two rookies in Backwater USA

This is going to get mighty long. If anyone is interested in reading the exploits and experiences of a couple of TBJ rookies, read on......

First of all, I would apologize to Billy C. here for a misunderstanding in these forums over 9/6 JoB video poker playing speed - but I already did that about 6 times while we were there! We were talking from two different frames of reference. I'm used to psycho-fast newer machines. Those Barney Rubble machines are so old that 600 hands per hour would be a good speed, much more would be foolish because you had to stop to check your "holds" before drawing out on every hand. The buttons are in bad shape. Mea culpa, Billy.

This edition of the St. Ignace Blackjack Blowout was going to be double deck pitch, dealt face down. Since it was our first shot at a live tournament, at least from the starting gate, this was a cause of no small amount of consternation since our experience has only been UBT-style TBJ. Someone on this forum stated that they tend to change the rules as they see fit, whenever they want to, and that comment was a bullseye.

This casino is a throwback to a period perhaps 10 years ago. No slots or VP over $1/coin. Highest BJ table limit I saw was $300. Most of the machines had bill acceptors, but cashout was by coin drop.. A sign on the entrance road had an arrow towards "casino parking" that was pointed down a one-way road - going the wrong way, of course. And, it was by far the oldest crowd I'd every seen in a casino, bar none We might have seen a half-dozen people under 30 the entire weekend!

I had a feeling that we were in for a bad time about 10 minutes after arrival. Upon checking in, I had a few questions about the rules that weren't addressed on their entirely too incomplete rules sheet. Some of the answers were vague and indirect, I had the feeling that there simply wasn't any solid answers available.

One of the things that they should have told us well ahead of time was the rule on doubling Aces after split. You could do that if you paid the dealer $50 on each Ace for the privilege, but neither of us knew it until we played in the rebuy round. The other rule was the requirement - or lack of it - that you must expose your BJ if you have it. During my first round table, we were told to keep it tucked. On the rebuy round table, we found out that other tables in the first round were told to expose it immediately. Now what? A huge discussion ensued, tournament directors called over, much huddling and conversation, and the ruling was made that you did not have to expose it. But wait! Ten minutes later, back come the directors to tell us that we DO have to expose it. Come on, people, you've run these before, get your act together! This final ruling came back to haunt me later, in a big way. The whole episode left a very bad taste in my mouth, and has both of us wondering if all TBJ is such a freakin' circle-jerk. If we go back, it will be for their shoe-dealt face-up events, Won't play their version of tournament pitch again.

We both bombed out in our first try. I couldn't see how Deb played, we were on the same shift but at different tables. I played like a donkey, I donked off my chips - any variation of "donkey" would work just fine here, except for one thing. I was so terrible that "jackass" might be more accurate. 42 hands, 2:1 BJ, DAS, no surrender except against Ace. Got behind and waited one button pass too long to make my move. Played the "Power Chip" card like a complete moron. Live and learn, eh?

My rebuy round went better, until roughly hand 25 when the guy chasing me managed to swing me 7 out of 8 consecutive hands. I never did catch up, but that dumbass rule about revealing BJ might have prevented it. I've got a max bet out, get a 2:1 BJ, dealer shows 5, my main opponent has 10-10. Since I have to show my BJ, he realizes that he has to split to stay ahead and pulls his cards back out from under his bet. WTF? He splits, dealer busts, I'm still down 1/2 of his initial bet from that hand, and I just can't catch a break to overtake him. I wasn't angry, but was very disappointed in how the execution of the tournament itself was done. It came down to my needing a miracle card on my last-hand DD, didn't happen. Deb's rebuy ended the exact same way.

As a whole, the tournament is a great deal. $200 each to enter if you share the free room with somebody else. Meals are pretty much taken care of with coupons handed out in the registration packets. First night was a buffet featuring king crab, second night was also crab but they added a sumptuous prime rib. Drinks are dirt cheap if you're wearing your tournament badge. Everyone on the casino staff was quite friendly, albeit not too knowledgeable of what rules were going to be enforced that day.

The quaint little P.S. to the story is those $1 9/6 JoB machines mentioned earlier.
99.54% + .33% cashback. Not a positive play for an A.P. like me, but what the heck.
Have you ever tried to carry seven buckets loaded with $900 worth of dollar tokens before? :celebrate

 

Finally someone posts a no nonsense summary of the St. Ignace event. Thank You LeftNut, very much. Yes, the event is a great social gathering, a great bargain, the scenery is spectacular - especially watching the sun rise over the waters (if you have a view from your room), and the surrounding area makes for a great weekend get-away. But the rest leaves much to be desired.

LeftNut, you said in your post "Someone on this forum stated that they tend to change the rules as they see fit, whenever they want to, and that comment was a bullseye". I don't know if you left out my name as a courtesy but I have no problem letting anyone know it was me and although I don't think I used those exact words, the meaning is the same. If you make a return visit, you will probably come across other instances of confusing and "on the fly" rules. That's the way they are. Well at least you found a decent JoB machine which I still contend they were missing 2 years ago.

Questions:
1) Is the casino in the Tent?
If you don't know why the tent, it's because they were too stupid to build the Hotel/Casino on land approved for gaming!

2) How many Blackjack tables do they have?

3) At the BJ tables, in the past they would not expose the dealer hole card if all players busted out. Is that practice still in effect.

4) Did you find many employees with over 10 years of service?
On my last visit, many employees were quite upset with management getting rid of some of their longer term employees. I was told by a few employees that they like to get rid of those with over 10 service to save on benefits.

 

Leftnut

I believe I watched the debate of the exposing the BJ, I see your point, but there was nothing malicious being done here on the part of the casino. I am sure future DD tourneys will have this question handled from the git go. I saw one player scolded, at my table for not turning it over promptly.

As to BJ table limits, I saw a $25 to $500 and have seen $50 to $1000, not unusual.

As far a being "Backwater", it is for sure in the GNW, and I like it that way. I like the way they operate here, very much as a matter of fact. The BJ and craps at the Kewadins are some of the best that can be found anywhere, when you view them through the eyes of an analytical AP. Old people, Hmmm does that include me???, 57,,?

As far as slots go, the bank of "Hot Slots" has gotta be a 99%er.

Peace to you.
creeping panther

 

No tent that we noticed, but then we really weren't paying attention to it. Yes, we heard about the problems with the building. Apparently either the surveyors or the builders of that fine new facility weren't paying attention, either. Most of it was constructed on non-tribal land. The huge concert-hall sized room sits there empty while a much smaller room is overstuffed with slots and tables. The most amusing thing was the bar where the 9/6 JoB's were. A fine new bar with bartop VP, all turned off because that half of the room is non-tribal land. The other half of the room has VP and a few slots. This bar was quite some distance from the main gambling room, that might explain why you missed it.

I didn't count, but I'd guess about 10 tables. A few carnival games like carribean and similar.

As per my usual in a casino, I played very little BJ. During that brief time, I didn't notice anything unusual, so I'd have to guess that they no longer do that.

Have absolutely no idea on that one.

Toolman, I wasn't showing courtesy by leaving your name out of the reference to the earlier post.
I was simply too lazy to look it up!

 

Whoops. I'm very aware that there was no malicious intent by the casino, and my apologies if it sounded that way. It was merely frustrating as hell that we couldn't get a "final" ruling on it for so long, and that ruling was (in the opinion of most everyone at our table) quite wrong. Then I got burned by it late in the game......

Cool! I didn't see 'em, but I'll take your word for it.

If 57 is old, then I'm just a pinch behind you! :laugh:
Perhaps "Backwater" was a poor choice of a term if it is perceived as an insult, because it wasn't intended that way at all. Maybe "Quaint" would have better served the purpose.
We rather liked the atmosphere better as compared to the usual cacophony present in most gaming venues nowadays.

I don't like to do slots because there's simply no way to determine the payback on them as you can for table games or non-gaffed video poker. If you've been having success on those HotSlots - excellent!!!

 

I'll Be Back!

Leftnut,

Sorry you had a bad experience but it was nice to meet you guys this past weekend. The crew at St. Ignace is pretty relaxed, but this is one of things I like about the tourney they put on.

I thought the rule sheet was pretty complete by saying "House rules and procedures apply unless specified below."

This was probably an indication that some live action table time, either playing or observing was warrented Friday night prior to the tourney start on Saturday morning. This would have uncovered the rule of being able to double (down to the table min) after spliting aces for you.

I've played quite a bit of blackjack over the years and would have to say, normal procedure for any hand help game is to expose your blackjack when it is your turn to play your hand. This is just another reason why position becomes so important to you in tournament play. Again, this goes back to the rule statement about "House rules and procedures apply unless specified below."
......

It was a great site to see you having to lug all those buckets to the counter. Wish I would had such a problem!

Hope to see you guys again in the future.

Take Care,
Dan

P.S. I did not make out of the first round, twice! Just the way the cards fell. Total of 144 players played this past weekend too.

 

To Toolman1

Mr. Tool,

Yes, they still hide the hole card if all bust and hide the burn card at the start.

For an AP this may mean playing 2 spots in a heads up game to lessen the chances of this happening, and thus the consequences of seeing fewer cards.

But some of the other things you can do more than make up for it.

Different strategys for different games.

Technically the temporary casino building is a tent, an expensive one, 3 million to complete it!

The situation with where the building was built MAY have to do with the Jack Abramhoff scandal in DC...he is now in prison where he belongs after screwing over many gaming tribes.

Peace,
creeping panther.

 

Dan, it was wonderful to finally meet you and your wife there, too! We plan on returning in October and look forward to seeing both of you again.

I don't know if I'd call it a bad experience, but it was eye-opening. With respect to your pointing out about the House Rules portion of the rules sheet, I feel that they should have had a complete set available. They've got to know that they're pulling in players from hundreds of miles away, seems to be a bit unrealistic to expect all of those folks to be intimately acquainted with those local rules.

It wasn't the eventual determining of the rules that bothered us, it was the flip-flopping of the decision.

I'll just bet I was a sight to behold, carrying those buckets, when I got to the cage. By that time, I'd lugged them the 800 or so feet from the VP machines and was about to drop. Not that I'm complaining, of course!

 

My View of St. Ignace

Toolman1,
I really can't understand your problem with this place!
First, you don't believe me when I say they have had the 9-6 VP machines for the entire 8 or 9 years I've been going there. Please call them and ask, since you won't believe me.
You seem to indicate that you won't play tournaments there again. Please note that LeftNut, Deb, Dan Mayo and his wife, Creeping Panther and myself are all satisfied enough to return in October. Their last 2 events have either filled or been within very few spots of full. At least 5 players from Minnesota that drove over 600 miles (these guys play more tournaments than you and me, by far). Good enough for all these people, but not toolman1.
Lastly, I've never seen the big rules issue that you harp on. Have you ever heard any of the above (other than LeftNut) have a problem? I'm convinced he is a very bright fellow with lots of VP knowledge but this was his first live tournament.
Their rule for split aces is this simple---you can double down after you split!
(it isn't necessarily $50 for next card, it's either an equal amount or less just like double downs just about every place). The only exception I've ever seen to this is at Jackpot Juntion in MN where you can only double down for amount equal to your original bet.
I agree with LeftNut that they should interpret the BJ tucking thing a little better but all it amounts to is that they don't tolerate players tucking BJ's! They don't really care if you expose a BJ before your turn. Again, this is pretty standard policy at other tournament venues.
I'm willing to bet that LeftNut won't have any issues in October. Things like this are just part of getting tournament acclimated. He's an intelligent guy and he did a Hell of a lot better at VP than I did.

Billy C

 

Sorry I took so long to read this thread as it is quite interesting and amusing

Firstly - nice review of the event and your experiences. It really helps other players, such as myself, should I consider attending the next BJT there. I only wish more members took the time to post such reviews

Secondly - the confusion about the rules: show BJ right away,tuck BJ until your turn, etc. This goes towards what has been discussed on other threads, in particular the "Design your Ideal BJ Tournament"

The rules vary EVERYWHERE.

I once was in a position where I could have advanced if I were allowed to DD on my BJ but THEIR rules wouldn't allow it.

Another time I split my 3's vs a dealer 7 and when I got the 8 on the first I wasn't allowed to DD!

Unfortunately it's buyer (player) beware!

 

Bill C,

Virtually all tournaments have their quirks and undesirable rules. Some casinos change their rules "on the fly" as they see fit while others don't enforce some rules while others you receive different opinions on the rules depending on the floor person you talk to. I'm not picking on St. Ignace - I criticize any event that deserves it. Now that's not to say that I don't play at a tournament because it's run badly. If that was the case I'd be home 365 days a year. But when the travel time and prize money (on the poor side at St. Ignace for a 3 day event) is factored in, well, I'd rather play somewhere else. On the other hand, if one's choices are limited, then I guess St. Ignace is acceptable. All I say is don't make excuses for any casino just because you have a liking for the place. Try to look at it objectively without excuses and ask yourself: Is this tournament really that great or do I go there for other reasons? For your sake, answer that question objectively.

I do wish all who play there the best of luck and hope all can see my comments as what they are meant to be - constructive criticism. If this event suites you then by all means support it. I do the same at the tournaments I attend. Different strokes for different folks. In closing I'll repeat what I said before:

Yes, the event is a great social gathering, a great bargain, the scenery is spectacular - especially watching the sun rise over the waters (if you have a view from your room), and the surrounding area makes for a great weekend get-away. But the rest leaves much to be desired. ​

 

What's to be desired? (St. Ignace)

toolman1
You either can't be specific or you don't want to be. Back several posts ago I asked you to be specific about your "not following the rules as written" complaint with St. Ignace. What I got was NO RESPONSE from you. Now you dance around the thing about how long they've had the 9-6 VP machines. You all but call me a liar by saying you still contend they weren't there 2 years ago. In my post yesterday I ask you to call the casino so you don't have to believe me when I say they've always been there. DID YOU DO THAT? Lets make a $10,000 wager before you make that call.
But what irks me the most is your statement that their tournament "leaves much to be desired" LIKE WHAT?????
None other than VP guru LeftNut has those 9-6 machines at 99.54+.33=99.87. I think he would agree that the $15.00 daily gold package and cash back coupons would edge it slightly over the 100% game.
I've never played open BJ nor Craps there but you've seen the posts here by others about those games.
You'll remember my estimate that the NET cost of playing this event is something like $50-$100. (I now believe it to be less than this!)
The purse isn't huge but consider above points and tell us what's to be desired.
Can you PLEASE BE SPECIFIC?
Billy C

P.S. You have good intentions and I believe you to be a good guy but I think you're "out to lunch" with your assessment of this tournament. Wish I didn't have so much trouble expressing myself!

 

Billy C,

Your last post carries an air of arrogance and is extremely argumentative. In addition, I never called or implied you were a lier. And a challenge to make a $10,000 wager, now come on. This is no longer the type of discussion I care to partake in. You have succeeded in reducing this conversation to the gutter level and I simply will not bring myself down to that level. So Good Bye Billy C.

PS: All of your questions can be answered if you read through my prior posts on the subject over the last year or or so, LeftNut's posts, and others. I see no sense, nor do I have the time to re-hash it all given the tone of your posts.

 

Gutter Level?

toolman1,
Nothing gutter level about it. I said you were a good intentioned good guy.I just feel you've been giving St. Ignace an undeserved bad rap for a long time and if you would point out some specific reasons why I would like to read them.
Billy C

 

Come on, guys

This thread started out with a trip/tournament report that took me a long time to think through. compose, and type up.
Can we please take the argument to PM's or emails, or start yourselves another thread?

 

Pm

LeftNut,
I was thinking about going with PM until fgk42 posted that he found this to be interesting and amusing.

Billy C

 

True, but.......

Good point, Billy, and I thought the same thing as Fred - at that time.
The tone has gotten a bit uglier since then, though.

 

Hey Billy - watch it. I get myself into enough trouble. Please don't fan the flames! :laugh:

What I meant by interesting is to see how people look at an event through different lenses. The same event in one person's mind is great while another person thinks it's the pits.

Yes I know I'm strange - sorry!

 

St. Ignace Report

LeftNut,
I can't disagree with your sentiments. I would welcome any PMs from toolman1 or any other members, for that matter.
Tool and I have talked in person a few times with no problems and I expect we will again.
I have no animosity for him, just a strong difference of opinion with him on this issue. We would probably be in agreement on most things. Truth is he's the one that encouraged me to make my first post (bet he regrets that now).
He is a good tourn. player and by this time tommorow he might be riding the new Harley that is first place at Ho Chunk tourn.
Before shutting up I would like to thank you for the 1st (I think) post in this thread about the Kewadin event from your perspective (and Debs).
I'm jealous about the $900 you carried to the cage because roughly half of that was at home in my pocket when I got there

 

Gutter Ball Level

Leftnut,

That is right up your alley isn't it?

Thanks for posting the original thoughts from a live action newbie. I have only played events in Laughlin. Only one of these cost me more that $15 to enter (Golden Nugget-for $250 a few years ago, but it was an overlay).

You got anymore lefty Dexter SST's to sell?

-jacks