Kevin Blackwood called me last week and wanted to introduce me to the gentleman who invented the "Super Fun 21", Mr. Howard Grossman. Seems Howard was interested in having his game used for tournaments. I had never really thought about hosting tournaments with the Super Fun 21 format, but the more I did think about it the more I liked the idea and I really like the format for TV. In Super Fun 21, the players may surrender after any number of cards have been taken, even after DD. Any BJ or 21 total is an automatic winner, but BJ only pay even money (except for suited BJ in diamonds which pays 2 to 1). They have a few other rules such as being able to DD after any number of cards (past your original two cards), and a few more (I can't remember all of them). I was just wondering if anyone else would be willing to try this format? As a secondary event I could see it as a nice change of pace, possible used for a TV tournament, (it has the TV appeal with it's little twists).
It's actually a pretty good idea. The best part is that being a proprietary format looking for publicity, I would be all in favor of playing this format if it meant money was being addedto the prize pool. Clearly, there is a lot more room for skill. The bad points that I would see are: 1) A little more work we all have to do to learn/memorize the strategy changes, and prepare our minds for the different tournaments (but a bonus to the people capable of adjusting). 2) On a philisophical level, I do not like to support games that encourage casinos to drop the 3:2 payout on BJ.
math guys What is the "house edge on this game"? Might not be as bad as it seems. If it's bad, I won't support it either. tgun
House Edge The house edge depends on the particular rules as follows. These figures are the result of a random simulation using the strategies above in a cut card game. Previously in this section I indicated a significantly lower house edge. My previous figures were based on perfect composition based strategy and shuffling after every hand. As I explain in my blackjack appendix 10 a cut card lowers the house edge by 0.113% in a single deck game. • 1 deck, dealer hits soft 17: 1.16% • 2 decks, dealer hits soft 17: 1.30% http://wizardofodds.com/superfun21 House Edge for Spanish 21 Following is the house edge under various common rules. • Dealer stands on soft 17: 0.40% • Dealer hits on soft 17, redoubling allowed: 0.38% • Dealer hits on soft 17, redoubling not allowed: 0.76% House Edge for Blackjack Same rules as Spanish 21: 0.43 (8 decks) My problem with Super Fun 21 is that casino’s are replacing Spanish 21 with Super Fun 21 and I personally don’t like that. Anytime any blackjack variation game pays less than 3:2 if just encourages them to press the envelope more and more. 6:5 is bad enough as it gives back a 1.3% edge.
I seem to recall something along these lines back in June 2006: http://www.blackjacktournaments.com/bb/showthread.php?t=1791&highlight=carnival+games In particular: The question is this: How badly do you want to promote a BJ tourney? Are you a purist to the traditional BJ format or if someone flashes cash do you jump at the chance? Second question: Super Fun 21 - more skill or less skill involved as a BJT format? These are just "hypothetical" questions. As far as a Super Fun 21 BJ tourney - I think it would be an interesting "side game". As far as incorporating it into your TBJ Tour - just say no! Actually my recommendation is to ask the developer of the game (Super Fun 21) for 25,000 in prize money and use it for a freeroll!
Adding more versions of the same concept adds little to the game I think....how many SUPER no bust card double down with a half twist versions do we need? Any game that promotes even money BJ's is evil. These casino pukes are already taking record holds on the poor game they offer now....and yet dumb players line up like cattle to play even the poorest of games. I cant see these little changes making the game any more interesting for TV or for play....I personally dont care for the carnival trick like changes of Spanish 21 or any add on like the side bets for 20,s or Queens etc....all are just poor odds bets to fatten a casinos take from the weak minded. So a BJ and a 21 automaticaly wins ....but wins even money....the % of dealer tie is so low as to never come near the loss of 3:2 ... This game is NOT your friend.
"Super Fun 21" is not blackjack and therefore should not be promoted as even a deviation of blackjack. They don't even use the word "blackjack", they say "fun" as in "have some fun with slots". Rick, if you incorporate this game, even on a minor level, you give it some undeserved recognition. It would give the casinos one more reason to introduce more bad games. If you do use "Super 21" in your tour then how about "21 +3" or "pair plus" or whatever? Why stop at "Super 21", lets ruin the tour before it starts. PS: I didn't vote in this poll but I think I made my choice clear. Polls on the site are useless because what do you have, maybe 20 to 30 players voting out of maybe hundreds of thousands (maybe millions) of blackjack players? If anyone thinks this is in any way representative, they need a course in statistics.
I was just asking.... Originally Posted by fgk42 I seem to recall something along these lines back in June 2006: http://www.blackjacktournaments.com/...carnival+games In particular: The question is this: How badly do you want to promote a BJ tourney? Are you a purist to the traditional BJ format or if someone flashes cash do you jump at the chance? I want to promote tournaments so bad that I am willing to give up playing in them to try to get open events for with a good format and rules for everyone else. No one has flashed any cash from Super Fun 21 that I know of, but that seems to be what it takes most of the time to get players to attend in volume. That's ashamed too, we talk about wanting an open event, but when someone try's to offer us one, we want to know what kind of money they are going to give us besides. I do conceder myself a purist to the traditional BJ format (as far as what I prefer playing), but I am open minded enough to try new formats. I also realize that the more open BJ tournaments there are, regardless of the format, the better off we are. Second question: Super Fun 21 - more skill or less skill involved as a BJT format? Seems like more skill than some and about the same as in others. I think two things help to cut down the luck factor: 1) Lower betting limits on max. bets. Anytime you offer a high betting limit (anything over 1/3 of your bank roll) you are adding more luck into your tournament. I believe it is the betting strategy and how we use it that helps the seasoned players 2) The number of hands allowed. The greater number of hands allowed is far better for a seasoned player over a smaller number. In the short term anything could happen and requires more luck than skill. There are a few other situations where you can use a strategic play, but luck is always going to be there in every format. Anytime you have magic chips, mulligan, and gimmicks that can change player’s cards there is going to be more luck involved. What about hidden bets? How can you make a strategic play if your having to guess what the other players bet? You can't, you can only make what you think is the best percentage and sit back and hope you guess right, besides hoping to win your hand. With all the above gimmicks, they allow the lesser player a greater chance to win, correct? YES! So how can offering them be considered more skillful? These are just "hypothetical" questions. As far as a Super Fun 21 BJ tourney - I think it would be an interesting "side game". As far as incorporating it into your TBJ Tour - just say no! Any TBJPA sanctioned event is straight "OLD SCHOOL FORMAT". However I have no problem with any casino offering a Super Fun 21 event either before or after the TBJPA/TBT events. All that does is offer another open BJ tournament to the players; I see no problem with that at all. Actually my recommendation is to ask the developer of the game (Super Fun 21) for 25,000 in prize money and use it for a free roll! This has been the mindset that ruined BJ tournaments for us in the first place. If you have a business are you going to pay your customers to come see you? If you do you won't be in business long. Just look at Bet21.com now, they are having to cut back on their guaranteed tournaments, if we are not careful we are going to cut are throats on that sweet deal as well. Back in the mid 80's we had 500 or more players at most all the BJ tournaments, but they gave away too much and didn't get the side action needed to support what was given away. Now they have gone to the VIP invitational events and so many of us are now on the outside looking in. Not sure of the exact phase, but it goes something like this: "If you don't learn from history, then you’re domed to repeat it". I for one hope we don't repeat it. I understand where you are coming from Toolman, but I am not trying to promote Super Fun 21. I was just wanting to find out if the players would play it? Just like in Tulsa, they offered Bounty BJ (it wasn’t real BJ), and accumulative hybrid (where the players took there totals to the final table to play elimination, some over $2,000 behind starting out, it wasn’t really BJ). But they had players playing these formats because they were open and allowed them to play additional tournaments while there.
dont get bent out of shape.... YOU asked WHAT? As a player who would attend more BJT I NEED to know these things. Not everyone lives in Vegas or within a 2 hour drive to a casino. For me I have to pay airfare, hotel, car rental, meals, etc. So if I base my decisions upon risk:reward forgive me but that is prudent planning. Unfortunately some people host tourneys and just expect people to show up and plunk down $ sight unseen. I agree with more open tournaments – I just hate to see tournaments competing with each other, like the April events at Barona, The Palms and Tunica. The more variables involved the greater the increase in variance so by definition it would help the lesser skilled players. Personally I think that Super Fun 21, as well as Spanish 21, would involved MORE skill in the BJT format as there are more options available for seasoned/experienced players. With respect to capping betting – I don’t buy into that argument. Lower chip totals and ½ to 1/3 max betting only helps in bettors. Here’s the only real area that I totally disagree with you. The “inventor” of Super Fun 21 wants you to use their format in YOUR tournaments – why? To promote THEIR product. It’s product placement. Therefore THEY SHOULD pay. In Walgreens if you want to sell a product you have to pay Walgreens for the space on their shelf – same with grocery stores. My problem is not playing Super Fun 21 in tourneys – I’ve already stated that I think it (Super Fun 21) would actually benefit clever players. My problem is that I had to see games like Super Fun 21 proliferate in the casinos in general. With regard to Bet21.com – there are several factors working against them: 1. piss poor marketing 2. UIGAE – people can’t fund their accounts 3. Too many people pissing and moaning about EBJ and “hoping” for its demise 4. No customer service, etc…. As far as Bet21.com and cutting our throats? Since when do YOU play there? I haven’t seen you playing – except for + overlay games. I don’t see TXTourplayer at ANY SNG’s so I ain’t buying THAT argument. As far as participation at BJT in the 1980’s – heck I was in college so I can’t comment. I can tell you this – now, 2007 is the 21st century and old school thoughts and ways have improved. Casino’s CAN host BJT and make $ off them – if they do it right. They “may” be loss leaders but in MY opinion they’re under utilized. You frequent casino’s much more than me. The average casino patron doesn’t understand or realize what a BJ tourney is. Poker – heck yeah! They see them on TV all the time. TBJ! What is that? To make matters worse when they do see it on TV it comes across as BORING! Now YOU might not think so but as anyone under 30. You’ve been doing this a long time and that’s cool. But talk to Jack Nicholas and Arnold Palmer about their days on the PGA and how it is today. BIG DIFFERENCES. TX, you want your tour to be successful. Pick a business plan and execute it to perfection. Carnival games like Super Fun 21, Spanish 21, BJ Bounty belong in weeklong events like what Mr. Woods will be hosting – and for low stakes. You want SKILL? Have a double deck TBJ that deals to the bottom of the deck, aka Imperial Palace style.
Your assuming... First off your assuming that I am talking about using the Super Fun 21 for the TBJPA / TBT events, I am not. Actually the reason I asked was Tulsa is putting the game in and I was wanting to see if players would want to play it there during the week of tournaments. I had suggested it to Eric, but as I always do, I posted the idea on the form so the players could let me know what they thought about it. You are correct that you haven't seen TXtourplayer playing at Bet21.com, but since I don't use that handle over there I don't know why it would matter. I have actually played against you a few times. You talked about the late 80's/early 90's vs. todays BJ tournaments, give me the 80's/90's in a heart beat. The problem is those days are gone because the players screwed them up. I am trying to bring back those style of tournaments, but with a modern plan of action so they are good for all parties concerned and maybe the casino will allow everybody back in the tournaments. I'm in Texas so I more than understand about the expenses of traveling to tournaments, why do you think I try so hard to get discounts on air, rent cars, and rooms for tournaments I am involved with. I'll try and help the players as much as possible. Now for the TBJPA/TBT format, I am going with old and new school and it isn't what I want, it is what the majority of the players want. The format is based on what over 1,200 tournament players have told me they liked and disliked over the past 8 years. The rules have been discused hundreds of times with all different players and not just me, and I had over a dozen different tournament players I asked to help design these rules. Players such as Ken S., Norm S., S. Yama, John R., Chipsmccoy, Swog, Richard R. (who designed the New Frontier tournaments), Peter N., Walt H., Adrainan P., Dr. Bass, Rich McK, and more. The TBJPA/TBT are not about what I want they are about what the players want and treating everybody fair, including the casinos. They are kind of like the BBB, they try to watchout for both parties. We have to give to get, we (the players) need them (the casinos) a lot more then they need us. That is why we're in the situation we are now. For judging skill over luck just ask Ken S., S. Yama, Norm S., Marvin O., or Walt H. what format they would prefer to play. But it does matter what they like, it is what each player likes. In poker most players prefer TX Hold'em, but they still offer all the other games. I'm not bending out of shape, I was just trying my best to answer your questions. Actually I have no problem with answering players questions, it just show they care enough to ask.
Fair enough I think that with written responses people sometimes take things differently then they were intended and especially with time delays a simple misplaced word here or there snowballs into something totally unintended. This whole issue of Super Fun 21 started this. As a casino game I’m against seeing it get a grip into ANY casino and I hope it (Super Fun 21) dies a quick death. I don’t like the game – PERIOD. As far as having Super Fun 21 tourney’s – I’m all for having BJ tourneys. When have you ever seen ME complaining about them – except that there aren’t enough or that I can’t get in! If Mr. Woods were to have one during the week-long Cherokee BJ tourney that I would likely participate – if I were already there. As a single stand alone BJ tourney would I travel to play in one? No. Your comment about the different format being good for TV – I understand the rationale because there are so many choices, DD on cards 3 or 4. Surrender after 3 hits, 7 cards automatically paying, etc. While I agree that it would make for better BJ TV then what it currently available I also feel it would promote the game Super Fun 21 and THAT would be bad for players and good for casinos in the long run. Now for the OTHER topics you brought up in your posts concerning Bet21.com, BJT formats and the “good ole days” What happened in the 80-90’s? I don’t know, so I won’t comment except to say that today, “it is what it is” – Since I wasn’t there I don’t remiss I just accept what we have and hope to improve upon the current situation. Your tour and the UBT are good starts. As far as BJT formats and what “players” want – did you ever stop to consider this? What about younger/newer and non-players? Recycling is good for the environment but if it didn’t work last time what makes you think it will work this time? The TBJPA/TBT is YOUR business and you can run it how you please. As any business you need to identify your base/core customers and make them happy – lets face it in most businesses 20% of our customers do 80% of our money. So by recruiting the top names you’ve done your homework. Get it off the ground and running. But how about expansion and getting “new” TBJ players? Next time you go into a casino randomly ask 50 people, “have you ever heard of tournament BJ and have you ever played in a BJ tournament?” I’d be curious to know the responses to that. As a person who frequents AC I can tell you the responses would be low. With respect to Bet21.com – I think most people know how I feel about them so I won’t rehash anything. What’s YOUR handle over there?
Invitational Tournaments I am kinda new at this - but can you tell me how you get invited to the "Invitational" tournaments?
I suggest browsing through the "Newbie Corner" on the main menu of the FORUM. This subject and many others that may interest you are covered with information you can use.
If it was so successful then why did the casino’s stop? Something obviously changed. It is my understanding that the 500 tournament players didn’t give the casino’s enough side action. So what makes you think they’ll change NOW? You’ve “recruited” the top names in the field as “consultants” the list of names you previously provided are some of the tops in the field of TBJ. So they gave you what they’re looking for and I believe it’s a good first step. With respect to expansion I’m not talking about different sites but expanding your potential player base. Nothing against Kevin but how many people really even watch GSN? The WSOB, in my opinion, was/is done nicely but the audience just can’t “find” the show. You can't get a following if people don't know that something doesn't exist. They need to sell episodes to the Travel Network or ESPN 5 or any local CW network. Heck WSOB should start their own website and have past episodes online. Last night poker was on three (3) different channels. (these were on channels 1-99) TBJ is like the little red headed stepchild! What I mean by expanding the customer base is what Bet21.com and playubt.com are/is attempting with their freerolls. Easy access, low initial cost barriers, etc. The problem with their freerolls, in my opinion, is lack of leadership. Have big names, like Phil Helmeuth, Ken Smith, Kenny Einieger, Hollywood Dave, any/all other UBT Team members sitting at a table and EXPLAINING the basics. Where are the books about TBJ? They’ve got over 100 poker basic books. What does TBJ have? Two that I know of – Wong and Einieger. As far as asking questions about "different" BJT (such as Super Fun 21) is a good step - as I've said I'd play it if I were there but I wouldn't go out of my way and I definately wouldn't plat Super Fun 21 in a casino! By expansion I'm talking about the TBJ being offered in different locations - like the gentlemans club. BTW how did/is that going? How many of those BJT were held and how many people are being sent to the TBT?
The events are going slow, last week only two tables. However the prize money stays the same regardless (I am loving that...LOL). It is only their 2nd week so it may pick up. They are sending 6 players to the finals each week and then all the finalist will play a winner take all on April 18th.
carnival games! So what! I'll play in any tournament that has a good payback, the better the payback the farther I'll travel. We had TBJ players coming to Stl to play in Pai Gow tournaments because of the great risk verses reward provided by Harrah,s. Ameristar is planning a series of Caribean Poker tournaments to get rid of money and I'll be trying to get my share. All casinos have plenty of "carnaval games", slots, bad VP, etc. I just say no, unless they make it worth it for me by kicking extra money into the pot. If the casino gives away its edge I'll play. If I was infuriated with their greed bad enough I would just stay home. tgun
Three beers into an early start on St. Patty's Day, catching up on Forum reading.... My own opinion is that SF21 isn't a good idea - yet - for TBJ. Sure would make for good TV, though. Not for the serious tournaments like WSOB or UBT, perhaps for another group of less serious players. Anything that'll get eyeballs looking at the TV screen watching TBJ is a good thing for TBJ in general, within reason. Here's an idea - Revive the Celebrity Blackjack show and give 'em some aberration of SF21 to play. It would be a wilder and woolier game, would be some great TV, and might just catch the gnat-sized attention span of the TV audience. I'm sure we could count on Max to explain on the UBT and WSOB shows that the game will be different there. We'd get the best of both worlds - people watching a sort-of EBJ game on the tube without having to play for serious dollars at a carnival game. Thoughts?
