The following was copied from a Joep quote in another forum: "A group of tournament players formed a group before the Windstar Million Dollar tournament. The deal was that they would all share in a piece in any members winnings. So far so good as this is not uncommon for tournament players to have a small piece of eachother before a tournament starts.Others do deals deeper in tournaments but its whatever everyone can agree upon before the cards are dealt." In my humble opinion, there is a potential for collusion, and although remote, an unfair disadvantage for players not a member of such a group. This has to do with the high/low end game scenario that could arise when two or members of the group are playing at the same table. I would vote to make this illegal at all tournaments. How to police it I leave to smarter members of this forum.
Respectfully disagree. What people do with their money is their own business. If they agree to divvy up prize money after a tournament is over, that's their decision to make. Collusion is another matter, because it's unfair and unethical. But you shouldn't worry. Players are not allowed to talk about the game to each other or coach each other during play. The most profitable way for players in a deal to play when they face each other is to pretend they don't know each other anyway.
I have to agree I have have been involved in several 10% splits with players. If it was to come down to both of us on the same table I can promise you I'm playing for 90% of the cake over the 10% of the crumbs...lol. This strategy of splitting has to do with the top heavy payouts and giving yourself a better chance to cash something. However I understand Fredguys concern for the chance of collusion. In all the TBJPA tournaments I simply take a secert vote from everyone at the final table if they wanted to chop. If 100% agreed we chop, but if just one disagreed we played out the table. This helps eliminate "DEALS" on the final table, but thats about the best you can do to police deals.
Collusion The potential problem I see has to do with collusion to insure that one player advances when a high/low end game situation exists and 2 team players are at the same table. Verbal communication would be unnecessary...a simple signal or other prearranged method would suffice. Chopping the pot at a final table has nothing to do with my worry. There is no benefit to cullusion there. I agree with monkey that what people do with their money is their own business. But what they do with my money, is my concern. Nor am I suggesting that any member of this forum would ever engage in collusion with others in a tournament. But, I think the potential exists.
I was thinking you were talking about the final table, sorry. But that brings up another question, if two players who have a deal are on the same table (lets say in the semi's) would it be okay for one of them to switch tables to avoid playing with one another and possible both making the final table? I'm also posting a situation that I was told about a few weeks ago that would fall under this thread. Final table, final hand. BR1 betting first, BR3 can catch BR2 if he DD and lose, BR2 can beat BR1 with a winning DD. Comes down to BR2 with last action sitting on a hard 15, he knows if he stands he locks up 2nd place, if he DD and wins he wins the tournament, but if he DD and loses he drops to BR4. BR2 has the last action and after thinking awhile ask BR1 if he'll pay him $1,000 "Not to DD his hand"? Yes, at the table in front of everyone! BR1 agrees and so BR2 stands and locks 2nd place + $1,000 and gives BR1 the sure win. I wasn't there, but I heard BR3 & BR4 were not thrilled about this deal.
team play Fred, I see what you're saying and I agree. But since it could never be enforced, I just consider it a part of the game. I'm sure poker is as bad or worse. Just like bad calls in sporting events, its part of the game. It would be interesting to see what the math. advantage of 2, 3, or more players teaming up at the same table would be. It would take me a long time to figure it out, with my slow brain. tgun
Fred guy please explain to me how before the hand is dealt to the 2 team members, how would they know who is getting the better hand to take the high.On top of that wouldn’t one of them have to have the lead to do this to ensure they will have the high locked up,on top of that the betting order would have to be perfect with the non team member betting first. All the stars would have to line up for this to even have a remote chance to happen and risk would have to be taken early on in the round to even think about having this come to reality. In other words this concern of your is not valid in a blackjack tournament setting, if it was a Baccarat Tournament or a Dice tournament then yes. But it’s nice to see that you do visit the LVA Forums to read Joep posts. It also seems strange that what happened at Windstar with this group and Skip is not a matter you are concerned about.That is where this quote came from in Joep post about what really happened at Windstar. http://www.lasvegasadvisor.com/forum/messageview.cfm?catid=48&threadid=291588
Imagine the following.....last hand....3 or more players, two are team members. One or two advance.All have chips within one max bet of each other. Team member 1 bets the minimum, team member two bets the maximum. Logically, the chances of one of the team members advancing has been enhanced. In other words, there is the potential for collusion. I am not suggesting that this has ever been the case......but I think the potential exists. I know that if I was playing in a high stakes tourny, and was aware that this kind of deal was being promoted, I would be very wary. Secondly, I visit LVA forum to see what new name Joe Whats His Face has invented for me. Lastly, how do you know what I'm concerned about.
Your example really does leave a lot of holes in it.First off you just say they are within a max bet of eachother.Without knowing if the chip difference is more than 1/2 of a max bet or less would be something that would have a greater impact on the outcome instead of one player going high and one player going low as you have set it up. But since your example is one or two advancing its safe to assume that this is a round that is not the finals.With that being said that would mean 1 player of the team is not going to advance while you believe the other has a greater chance to. Well if you were to win the tournament you would receive 100% of the first place prize if one of the team members did they would only receive at the most 50% of first place prize,so right there you have a 2 to 1 advantage over the team. But lets look at your example Team member 1 bets first and takes the high Team member 2 bet and takes the low The non team member is now left to bet and would have to be BR 3 for your example to have any merit.This would mean that during the round the team members would have to be putting chips at risk to gain the lead which would subject them to be eliminated and not be around for the last hand. But lets look at an example Team member 1 bets and takes the high and is dealt a 17 Team member 2 bets and takes the low and is dealt a 20 You as the non team member can take the middle with the option to dd for the high You are dealt a 20 and the dealer has a 9 up. If that happened how much of a favorite would the team be with only a 50% shot at the money You as the non team member can also take the high and have the win/lose the win/push the DD win/lose the DD win/win the DD win/push. The problem with your example is that with the many possible independent outcomes in a blackjack tournament there should be no or little concern for this to happen. As far as your stoppin by at LVA to see what new nicknames Joe Pane has bestowed upon you I believe it was only one and it fits you like a comfortable pair of slippers. You on the other hand have used numerous names when you refer to him. In a tournament that I was in I along with Joe Pane we both made the final table and i was Br 1 going into the last hand while Joe was Br 3 and having to bet first. Joe Bet a rainbow bet that was a few chips shy of the max bet.He was attempting to get me to over bet my lead over him.I could have given him the high and taken the low which would have been what you think team members would do. We were not a team nor had any prior deal work out before the tournament. He would be getting the short end of the stick if he would have done a deal with me as I'm a tournament donkey.I matched his bet as he has taught me to do from day 1 of his lessons.I even matched his insurance bet on the last hand when the dealer showed a Ace up. Joe was dealt a 20 I was dealt a 18 Br 2 was dealt a 19 and had bet enough to beat a push or loss by me When the dealer made 18 I pushed Joe won his bet and won the tournament for $80,000 I finshed 3rd for $25,000 so not doing a team play as you would suggest would have been the smart play we were paid a total of $105,000 combined. Team play does not work in blackjack tournament
not too much to worry Fredguy and tgun are absolutely right to be concern and wanting to know how big of a threat collusion is in blackjack tournaments. Joe is mostly right that it should not be a big issue, but his explanation is partially correct, sometimes wrong, and in the specifically selected cases not illustrative. He wrote: Well if you were to win the tournament you would receive 100% of the first place prize if one of the team members did they would only receive at the most 50% of first place prize,so right there you have a 2 to 1 advantage over the team. There is no 2 to 1 advantage. In a fair game no matter how you slice it or dice it, two team members get 50% of a prize each, with 2/3rd chance of that happening, which translates to 33.3% value. That’s the same 33.3% for non-team member, who gets 100% but 1/3rd of the time. To see real possibility of running into collusion on a final table we need start with “us” making the final table (let’s make it about one in 20 for under 200 players attendance). If there were two teams of three players each possessing double the average skills, two from the same team would make the final table about once in forty tournaments. That makes hundreds of tournaments for any individual without it happening. More realistic scenario is that two players who didn’t have any previous arrangement make the colluding agreement once they both advanced to the final. This does not happen too often, we know already how much the bj community is divided. Then comes the trust issue, then the ego (“I won’t make a deal when I am better than the other guy”) and finally the execution - the strategy to improve total EV for two players is not obvious. Then, the two “team members” need to be in a fitting betting positions and at least one of them should be BR1 or BR2, preferably with just two of them and one other player left. Since help to one of team-members comes at the cost of the other there has to be a disproportional prize distribution, where difference between first and second place prizes must be much greater than between second and third place. Nah, not gonna happen too often. Now, let’s look at a specific situations for three players. Let’s assume they all have similar bankrolls. There will be nine combinations for non-team-member for BR and betting positions: Being BR1 and betting first, second, or third, and the same for being BR2 and BR3. (Ten combinations if we distinguish the two situations of being BR2 and betting second, one when BR1 bets in front of BR2 and the other when BR3 bets in front of BR2.) Most plays will be to bet max, min, or match lower bankroll already bet. Whenever we will be not BR3, we will be given either low or high except being BR2 and betting first, and being BR3 will suck no matter what. But it should be important to notice that in all cases, excluding bad plays, the other two players, regardless if team-members or not, benefit the most from using similar strategies. In a multiplayer table only low(est) bankrolls go for low if players in front of them bet big and they have no other low bankrolls but bigger then theirs betting behind them. It is better for two people (at table of five or six) being BR1 and BR3 to bet big than BR3 betting minimum, unless BR2 already bet more than the difference to BR3, and it is really top heavy tourney (so, Joe and Sissy case does not really apply here). The case for collusion can be made on rare occasions with playing decisions. For example, you, as BR1 and first player to act had bet a chip less than difference to BR2. The others took high betting maximums. You stood on hard 17, BR2 had 19, and BR3 had 20. BR2 wins the round when dealer ends up with 17 or 18. BR3 wins only with the dealer’s 19. BR2 team-member could hit his eighteen to 21 – it is lesser chance to win for him but a chance to end up with 21 which covers dealer’s 20. Yet another way of colluding is to on purpose stay in the game with minimum chips without chance to advance, or make all-in bets considering being eliminated –done to affect betting position to help a buddy (or to hurt somebody one doesn’t like). This was observed at UBT style tourneys, which is more prone to this technique as there are eliminations every few hands. However, we have to be careful not to jump to false conclusions, as often times the best play is to be contradictory to our opponents play. This may be especially evident in other games like baccarat or dice. If a leader bets max on one side and I bet small, his win could put me in very disadvantageous situation. If I bet with him and we both win, I still would have some catching to do. Now, if I bet max opposite side, my chance to win this decision may be almost the same but I would benefit gaining double max bet to the leader. Often times it would be good and the only correct play that looks like team play, colluding, and something called “transfer”. S. Yama
cheats and thiefs It never fails to amaze me how the worst of society including cheats and thiefs are allowed to voice their opinions within these walls but respected and constructive posters seem to get banned for no reason, Lil Sissy has now been banned no explanation, Maybe being the girlfriend of the worlds most respected BJT Player is enough to me this is a Joke. With BJ Tournaments at an all time low, If I was the owner of this site i would be on once again on bended knees begging For Joe to come back and post here in an attempt to bring some consructiveness into what is now a near dead site, but hey what do i know I only logged in as am currently recovering from a near death illness which was a mutated form of the bird flu virus which is fast spreading all over europe, And was shocked to see what has occured here. I wish you all a good year with the best that cards can bring
If your trying to say Joe's posted this who cares anyway Many banned people on this site come back with new user names and post the same old dribble anyway, In fact how many user names have you had over at LVA , If your whole reasoning for this is spacing then besides this being sader then I could have ever wished for the likely hood is assuming they live together then am sure Sissy would use the same Word processor as Joe to prepare a lengthly posting and so would have the same formating, Me i just type and post no spell check and as for puct-uation;:'' what''s that so everybody knows its the real me typing Plenty of times before Sissy has stated she has copied Joe's words etc so as so much has happened in the past and is now the past. For this community to go forward there is little point without contribution from unarguably the World's no 1 BJT player, The ambassador of the game who has done more then probably everyone on this site put together for the game and our community. The Person who I am so lucky to be able to call a friend Mr Joe Pane. Whether if Joe would even post here again after some of the poisonous venom that has been directed from here previously I have no idea, But for there to be any chance of this site having any true meaning in future years then people need to start working together instead of against each other. When you have come as close to death as I have recently and are left recovering and looking back at things only then can you see how absolutely petty and ridiculous People daily squabbles can be. My Message for 2009 and forward is to spread love to every person you meet at every given opportunity. This means giving way to a car, helping someone in need, There are so many opportunities every day, For every person you spread the love to they will go forward and do similar it will not be long before the world becomes a better place.
http://www.blackjacktournaments.com/bb/showpost.php?p=27764&postcount=3 BTW, I have only posted under two names at LVA one, JoesCrabShack, was banned even tho no TOS violations. As is well known my ClubUBT alias is PLOPPYLVA Wake up, get real. Read the rules.
No Barney - You wake - I have shown you the path forward - start spreading love instead of venom or die with no meaning and no value to the world the joker that was never funny which is how you are seen :flame: My other new philsophy is share the pizza so I'm ordering enough for everyone x
Barney your opinions are worthless, Your total Winnigs for tournaments amount to a few Clububt trinkets :laugh: If you go back through all your posts there is virtually nothing of any substance in your posts except comedy and venom I am trying to make you open your eyes before its to late, I will not waste words with you it's pointless the whole meaning to my post is that people need to work together instead of against each other you are showiing by each reply that you are unable to do this, This is why the world is where it is today and why our 2 Once great Countries are now nothing but 2 big worthless dung holes - this is what the Barnies of the world have created. You may also notice there has been no other replies here that is because unlike other people who have been in PM contact with me to wish me well and see how I'm doing you show just how far into the darkness you have gone continuing your attacks at someone who is recovering in hospital
Forum is fine mace As I've said several times before, I've no reason to bad mouth Joep and I won't but it's wrong for you to suggest that ANY one person is bigger than the forum. I'm glad to read that your health is improving and hope it continues to do so! Billy C
Thank you Billy although my point may have been placed slightly over the top it was was to make a path towards uninty instead of war which i know you would agree with.
Why is it that noone defending Joe can seem to remain civil around here? Mace comes on saying "spread love not venom" in the very same sentence when he is saying another user has 'no value'. Intentional irony? Or just too many medications? I will not remove any of these messages, because they just prove my point. This forum is much better off without members who insist on making nasty stabs at any person or any policy with which they disagree. Even so, I'll assume that mace is just having a bad day, and give him the benefit of the doubt. Time will tell.
