OK--starting a new thread and I'd love to hear from Ken, Hollywood, Ace, and whoever else has played both online UBT and live UBT games: How do they compare? What are differences beyond chip counting--the obvious 800 lb. gorilla in the room? Are count downs more stressful--any tips? Having HD breathing down your neck is clearly worse than him just jabbering in the chat box, right? What are the challenges? Opportunities--I've heard about the zero bet option--anything else? Any and all comments welcome and thanks...
The good news about the chip counting is that the live events have used "banded" chips, which makes counting them easier. There were some chip color issues in Aruba, and those were mostly solved in St Kitts. In addition, mandatory stacks of 10 were implemented in St Kitts, and this helps immensely. With that change, chip counting is much less of an issue. Recent rule changes compared to the online version... As you mention, a secret bet can now be $0. In addition, you can secret double for $0, which is effectively "hit once". More important is the other change in secret actions. If you use a secret action card, you'll be dealt one card face-down regardless of what you choose. That's a difference from live season one of UBT, where the player came back from the secret bet booth and told the dealer whether he needed a card or not. If he asked for a card, it was apparent that he had doubled. Now, you can't tell anything. He might have stood, surrendered, or doubled for $0 or more. This really increases the power of the secret bet/action. Live UBT events currently have a mandatory countdown before each elimination hand, so if you're concerned about chips, there's another plus. Another difference is that live events are dealt from a shoe, not reshuffled after every hand like online. In my opinion, that's a minor thing, but there are certainly players who would strongly disagree. Last of all, yeah, chat-box Dave and in-your-face Dave are no comparison.:laugh:
Ownership Are WSoB still being sued for using the UBT format? Are there any other non-UBT affiliated tournaments using a UBT format or likely to in the future? What is the legal position? Cheers Reachy
Thanks so much for the insight Ken--very helpful. Gives me some prep for my planned showing as a "UBT live" newbie in Jan.
Calling Hollywood... Hollywood--Any comment on the above (especially the first part)? I'm sure many would love to hear your perspective... I've seen a photo of the second part in action in All In (smack-breathing down Ken's neck...), so I've got the idea on that!
Live/online EBJ The recent addition of secret action, concealing bet amount, adds gabizillionlly to strategy moves in live UBT. Google gabazillionally if you know, or have played against your opponent or opponents before. If you don't want to call strategy skill, well then.............. And you better have a steel traped mind, something akin to the hero in "Village of the Damned," if you're so fortunate to be seated live on either side of Cerritos.
Just a minor issue, but how have the secret bets been handled when not on TV, and you don't have a port-a-potty to retreat to? Have the cards been filled out at the table or away from the table? Is there a time limit? Are you allowed to stay at the table and count chips while planning your bet for longer than the normal 45 seconds?
Secret time Most people tend to walk away from the table a little or at least take a step back or so. As far as staying and counting chips, I guess you can, but I haven't seen anyone utilize the time like that...mainly because there is a count done before the elimination hand that kind of eliminates the need for that.
One big difference I can think of is that you will get a fair deal in live action..Im not convinced that you get a random deal online. I play enough to notice and I notice too many dealer ace and ten up...at Bet 21 anyway. I just finished a game where there were 6 dealer ace in 7 hands...5 of these were BJ! Thats darn near impossible! I see this regulary and Im convinced that while it cant affect a players fair chance at winning since it affects everybody...it certainly ends games far faster than normal. The net result is that they turn games faster thus collecting more rakes per hour. Pay attention to dealer up cards....Its fairly common to see three or more dealer ace in the first 7 hands...theres no way normal dealing would ever give these numbers...I wish there was a way to check this site for randomness??? I was going to start a whole other thread on the subject of extremely slow players online too..but Ill just lay out my thoughts here. Ive been thinking about this for a while now...and it got mentioned in jest the other day but it reminded me to mention it. Does anyone think that maybe the extremely slow players are entering play into a gaming program??? Some people are so slow that there can be no other excuse...taking the full 30 seconds every hand ...they have 19 vs dealer 18 and they are still maxing out the time. I think they are cheating! When i see it often enough I start to call them on it....Im a fairly patient guy but some of this is strange and the dumbest , slowest guy on earth could play faster....Im playing 2 BJ games plus a poker game all at the same time and Im still waiting ....thats not right ....cuz Im not all that fast myself. Has anyone heard of this type of play? They use to (maybe still do ) have cheat computers that they took into casinos...wires going down to toe switches etc.... I think I read once about poker cheats too but I didnt pay enough atention or was not that familar to undertand how it worked.. So lets talk about cheats. I know there are several programs available to run simulations ...I think casino verde is one ...couldnt these be adapted to track optimal play? You enter each seat as it is played and poof...out comes bet amounts ...I guess since the "cards" are supposedly "shuffeled" every hand it can not be used to track hands....but what about bet amount or for cards in that particular hand...??? So now I would know the optimal play when I have a 5,000 dollars bet and I have a 12 against dealer ACE up ...what should I do given all the other info on the table at that moment? Currently I dont think there is enough money in the game to merit this effort but then again there is aweasel born every day and there is another weasel trying to steal that weasels food....so maybe its possible. Lets talk about cheatin ans sex...ok just the cheating then...
I always assume that the slow players are just taking extra time to find the right box on their basic strategy cards - also - you should not be surprized to see the dealer bj 5 times in seven hands - you should be surprized if you never see this - if you play enough tables - random chance means that there will be a table where the dealer bjs the first 5 hands - and another where he busts every time he has an Ace up - etc. - all the possibilities will occur - if you repeat the 'trials' enough time - the most likely possibilities simply occur more often - you just remember the rare, odd results because they are unusual - and you are more likely to see the odd results (the more extreme probabilities) more often on line - because you are playing it every day and getting in a lot more tables of play -
I wish I was as confident as you that there is an true random deal in the internet game. Ive played plenty of casino bj and I understand the remembering about the unusual hands part. Thats not what Im seeing. To see 5 BJ in the first 7 hands is not worth mentioning ...but to see multiple BJ in the 1st seven is notable night after night...tonight in a game dealer 1st 7 hands were BJ, 20, 20, 20 , 21, 19, BJ......quite a run... Im saying I think this program can be set. Rare games go to 30 hands...why is that? There is no one checking these guys to assure a fair game.....there is no gaming comission...and this would be a victim less crime....its a simple matter of rushing the end of a game. I havent played live EBJ games yet but Id be interested to know the average length (number of hands) per game. Also I watch very closly how often a dealer busts a Ace up hand...the stats for that are low and there are also norms for dealer ten up.....Im saying this program favors a quick ending game and the reason for that would be to get more games per hour. UB/Bet21 does not offer hand review like most good sites do ..or did. At most sites you could review every hand of every game if you wished...these sites keep this info hidden.....so how can I ever know? How can anyone ever know? Id like to see the site post the numbers and explain the randon number generator....better yet Id like to see independant tests done on a regular basis... Why do you think they have cameras in casinos watching supervisors... watching pit bosses who are watching dealers who are watching players who are also being watched by security who is also watching the cage folks and this whole group is being watched by a gaming comission???? Because there is so much honesty and integrety is this business??? Its a prove to me that you are honest type business... Someone asked in another thread why we play tournaments....one reason I do is because it is an inherently more honest game where players play against each other and the house is basically out. If its a truely random dealt game you should get a fair game in the regular online BJ games....lol How often are you lining up to do that? I do see players playing that game but we have already talked about foolish gambling and gamblers enough. I want a tested and proven randon dealt game. If I am an owner and thats what I am offering then I should have no problem assuring by tests that that is what I am providing! I think the dealer ace up , ten up knob is turned up to high setting! The reason is increased rake rates...Id like the sites to run independant tests and publish the results ....if you have nothing to hide this is a simple matter....no???
software There are a few bits of software that are available to online poker players that can track play and suggest strategies. They can also be set up to watch cash game tables on multiple sites so as to find the tables with the most fish on. What the players do is hook up the software to partypoker $5/$10 cash games, leave it running for an hour then target a specific table with the most fish on or the fishiest player. I have seen software that tells players how to play individual hands, what to bet, when to raise, re-raise, when to fold, etc, etc. Don't be suprised if you aren't playing against these add-ons on a very regular basis. Do they make winning players out of those that use them? I don't believe they do. It really wouldn't be that hard to do somethign similar for TBJ. My recent return to BASIC programming has shown me that it would be very easy to write a program that would tell you what the best action to take is after the bets have been made and the cards have been dealt. In fact I have written one, and I know I'm not the only one that has. Do I use it online? No. I don't see the point. I play this game because I enjoy the challenge of figuring these things out myself, with my own organic computer and the day I "cheat" using something like that is the day I give up TBJ. That doesn't mean that other less scrupulous people won't use them though. And it won't be long before there will be software that can tell you what to bet as well as how to play the hand. But would they turn a bad player into a good player or even an average player into a good player? Cheers Reachy
I think the two main reasons for slow play by some online players are, 1. The speed of the computer. When I tried to play UBT on my computer, the game would time me out, many times not even letting me back in for the next decision...but on my son's computer, I never have a problem. I think many players never realize that they are taking most of their 25 seconds to play.....If you notice, when they need to take more than one hit, it still takes a long time between hits. 2. I think many players are playing more than one game, or are doing something else, while waiting for their turn to act.
Guilty as Charged I fall into group 2. Quite often I'm playing more than one game at a time and this tends to slow things up a bit, but not a whole lot. Most of the time though I get distracted because of slow play and start reading mail, watching TV, whatever. Then I become part of the problem and it starts snowballing. When all is said and done the bottom line is it's the players right to use up as much of the clock as they desire. I prefer to keep things moving if possible until the elimination hand in EBJ or the last few hands in a traditional online tourney.
Playing multiple games or watching tv delays have tells....its not consistant delay...its an ocasional delay.... Nor is the bug delay of this EBJ game in particular the delay Im talking about....btw...I call it a bug because this game does not in fact run well on every system that is published under sys requirements...but you can force it to act right by turning off annimation in the options section.....that delay is also detectable and I always advise players of the "fix" so that they can play a decent game. Im talking about certain player delays that are consistant, regular and fairly predictable....my guess being the time it take to enter hands and bets.... I didnt say it was wide spread but there are some players who just regulary delay the simplest decisions... as in every hand. For example the decision to stand on 19 vs dealer 6 up...this is a basic no brainer unless we are at elimination or final hand or even last few hands...but when i see the delay in the middle game ....Im saying hummmmmmmmmmm. And Im headed for the zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz key. Ive only heard a bit about the poker cheats but it was much along the lines that Reachy describes...frankly thats enough to keep me away from the big money online poker games. Im also in agreement that the effect is limited but I want to play a dead fair game...not be dead meat in a computer generated mistake free math match...Im slow and often inaccurate...but didnt they think Einstein (as a student) was retarded too?
sloooow play! I think some people play slow because it allows them an automatic $500 bet. They are either to embarrassed to just bet $500 or they are hiding "taking the low" or they are just trying to rattle impatient opponents, like me. There are so many bad players on bet21 and UBT which can also cause slow play. Who knows! When I get tired of it I quit playing for a while. On the other issue of internet randomness, I felt that things weren't random when I first started playing on Global 3 years ago. So I played thousands of hands and kept track of various cards and combinations of cards. For example how many dealer bjs, how many player bjs, the ratio of A's to 5's, running and true counts, percent of 7,8,and 9's, win/lose percents, etc. And never found anything out of normal expectations. If they where manipulating randomness, I could not prove it even though I never beat their "Alantic City" game very often, using perfect BS and true count betting and playing. I guess the 50% pen. was my problem. Also, I wasn't willing to go far enough into the whole to eventially get way ahead. tgun a.k.a. tkar on bet21
