The participation in the tournament tour is down considerablly in the last 4 weeks in all the tournaments. It is my honest opinion that if the crowd does not get back into the scene you are going to see the cancellation of several event. This includes some that have been running for many years. Guys if you want guarantees, you must participate!!! One other thing...do not blame it on the snow birds...it is the locals that are not coming!!!
Rampart It's not affecting Tuesdays $10.00 entry at Rampart...sold out and people are buying a week in advance....maybe the Swine flu is bothering some people to cause a drop ? Thursday's $25.00 entry at Rampart is also holding up better than before. Sahara on Wednesday is down a little but during this period it has been a little bit slower. I also read a post that NYNY casino has a tourney on Weds...could this be the cause? Mikey754
Do you mean those smaller weekly BJT's around town? If so, that would suck! I enjoy those little BJT's in Vegas, love to play 'em for a warm-up before whatever bigger event brought me to town. They're the primary reason that I rent a car there - is easier for buzzing around town to hit as many as possible. If you're talking about bigger events like those that Rookie789 generously posted a short time ago, for example (Planet Hollywood 100K, Treasure Island 125K, Mandalay 100K) then I don't have one flippin' ounce of sympathy for them. Invitation-only events which experience a downward spike in interest have only themselves to blame.
the weeklys i am taking about sahara, aliente, rampart, etc. there were only 3 at a table for the 3rd round at sahara and th 1st 2 rounds did not fill up... i normaly take 6 or 7 to laughlin gn but it looks like no one is going. i did not go to the 500.00 buyin last week, i had a conflict. the invitationals...i do not care as i am not on their lists...
Rampart I was in thurs. 4/30 tourney and made it to the final table for 225.00 and the players there were all regulars. Been there before and the same players were there too.
Which tourney: Sahara or NYNY? R and I are coming to LV in a couple of weeks. There is very little I can find on NYNY Wednesday tourney. Does anyone know the prize payouts or how many people enter? I understand Sahara 1st place is $1000. We want to make one of them and we are staying on the strip. Any suggestions?
1 down more to come We learned today that the Sahara tournament is now history. It is also my opinion that Aliente will not be far behind. I went last Friday and was there about 5:05 to be told the 1st session is sold out and they probably would not have the ADVERTIZED 2nd session. I drove 40 miles to learn that they did not want to have another session for only 8 players. I guess their brain power was not strong enough to decide how to do the semis and the final. Write another one off to stupidity. When it started they had lines out the front door and miss treated the players so badly that everyone stopped coming except the people that live only a few blocks away. Which one will be next?
Explanation Please askdick, Can you expand on how the Sahara mistreated the tournament players. I've only played their Wednesday mini twice 2 or 3 years ago and thought it was a decently organized tournament which included a buffet (quality questionable) lunch or $10 match play coupon as I recall for a $25 entry fee which guaranteed a $1,000 1st place prize. When I said I was going to give them side action between rounds, other tournament players asked why? You're paying an entry fee for the tournament, you don't have to give them side action. Not to sound like a "Toolman" Alter Ego but could a lack of casino side play by tournament players be included in the Sahara or other local casino's decisions to terminate BJ tournaments? This is not an opinion of the circumstances but rather a question for you to clarify your statement of casino "stupidity" that led to termination of the weekly tournament.
Stupidity of the casinos The value of the Sahara tournament was excellent for the players. I also believe the casino is making excellent profit on the tournament. I miss led you to believe that the commnts I said was about Sahara that was stupid but they do some things that the players do not like such as.... 1 hour rounds when 45 minutes will do A ridiculous check in procedure where you may stand 30 minutes in line 7 players at a table when the physical distance between tables do not make it very comfortable but rather quite uncomfortable no beverages at the table...you do not touch the cards but you are not allowed to eat or drink...but...in theirs and all poker tournaments where you do touch the cards you can get a full course meal Of course these are all minor problems and the value of the tournament was excellent for competition as well as entertaining. As far as side play, I do not owe the casino side play. They should run their offer to make money. I play tournaments because it is a better value. If a casino does not offer me reasonable rules where I have a chance to win, I will not play there tables or machines. A big point is that they do not require poker players to post side action!!! By my estimates the casino took in "over the guarantees" most of the time with approximately 75 people attending on a weekly basis. I do believe they want to change the format and it will be back a few weeks before the snow birds arrive. As far as Aliente goes, they are stupid and they turned a very successful tournament into a ghost town. This is just 1 mans opinion...
Gee, what a huge profit center. Let's do some simple arithmetic: 75 Players @ $25 = ........................................................$1,875 Re-buys: Estimate of 40 players @ $10 =................................$400 Gross Total taken in = .....................................................$2,275 Less: $10 match play. Cost is $5 per player for 75 players = ......$375 Net amount taken in = ................................................... $1,900 Less: Prize pool = ......................................................... $2,000 Net cash loss................................................................. -$100. Now allow some for labor, signage, maybe some advertising, cards, and incidentals and this becomes a bigger net loser - a loss leader if you will. Of course its common for businesses to run loss leaders to attract customers with the hope those customers will offset those losses with other "purchases". But if those customers do not "purchase" other items then running loss leaders just add to a company's expense without providing additional income. So can the company be blamed for canceling loss leaders?
Sahara Friday Tourney I thought they had cancelled their Friday tourney quite a while ago? And does it mean they are no longer doing the Friday tournament, because they canceled one round for one day? They are still running the Wednesday tournament, aren't they? I have always thought this was one of the better weeklys in Vegas.
Not the full picture Your math is not bad except you left out the restaurants and their overpriced gift shops. I never said they were making a fortune, but it ran for about 4 years. I believe there is more to the cancelation than not enough SIDE play. Actually several players DID play the machines and the tables. What ever the case, those 75 players will not be in their shop on a weekly basis for now...Very short sighted. The bean counters have won again. The Friday tourney was canceled maybe year ago. They tried Monday but did not give it a chance to get off the ground. I am talking about the Wednesday event. It was one of the better tournaments in town without a doubt. The answer is very clear. Figure your expenses, charge for them and what ever is picked up on the side is also profit. Does not seem like brain surgery to me.
Restaurants: Many restaurants (maybe most) are privately operated by people/corporations that rent the space from the casino/hotel. The casino makes no direct profit under that situation. Besides, a buffet coupon (or match play) was given at registration time. So those that took the buffet did not visit a restaurant. And since most players in that tournament were probably locals they probably would not visit a high end restaurant while there for the tournament. Gift Shops: You're kidding right? In all the tournaments I've played in LV I can count on one hand the number of players that bought something at casino run gift shops. And again, most gift shops are run by companies that rent space and the casino/hotel receives no direct benefit from shoppers. So that takes us back to "side play". It's good that you noticed "several" tournament players playing the machines. So is that 3 or 4 out of 75? Now here are the facts. If a casino builds a sizable profit into the entry fee then most will baulk because the "equity" would be substantially reduced. If the casino only charges a small fee - say $5 -then why should they bother. That $5 does not leave much profit after direct expenses. Hell, even I can make more money in the time it takes to run the tournament than that low fee would generate and I can do it without employees or investing many millions in LV property. FOR noman: I have no idea what you meant by you last post.
keep it simple stupid KISS..........18 tables of 6........2 advance to semis 6 tables of 6 ........1 advance to Final table of six. $25 entry fee.......total prize pool of 108 players x $25 = $2700 paid to final six players......pretty good payday if you came in first or second. This was the most successful weekly format years ago.......... If I was the bean counter for the casino.......I would have suggested charging $25 plus $5 so the casino can cover expenses with the $540 in revenue raised on a full day of entrants....... As a player who enjoys the game and a businessman who understands the costs of running an event..........I would have no problem paying the $5. However, the unfortunate reality over the years is that the EV analysis by blackjack experts of paying that $5 (20%) was just to big to over come............and this analysis in my opinion, played a part in why tournaments are few and far between..............players wont play the vig that casinos need to justify the event...... We have only ourselves to blame..............
Demise of open tournaments This is not a newly relevant problem even though some selfishly think so and continue to milk the neighbors cow until she goes dry without their help buying grain to support milk production. Open BJ tournaments with paid entry and 100% of entry fees returned to players were common in the past until casinos realized due to players not giving casino's an opportunity to make a profit with side play made tournaments invitation only. Open tournaments other than mini's are now seldom or nonexistant and it appears the mini's as reported in LV are now drying up as the cow did due to a lack of feed. askdick, You among others as a local had a great chance to prove your point of entry fee plus a set vig for a BJ tournament without side action to be sucessfull at the TBJPA event held at the Tropicana last year yet only 26 participated maybe 15 locals. That was entry fee with all entry money returned to players plus a vig as you recommend in lieu of casino side action, my question is did you support the TBJPA Tropicana Open tournament with vig which is the the type tournament you seem most comfortable with. I find it almost incomprehensible you think a casino can return all money paid by participants in a tournament and make a profit (which they have too) in restaurant and gift shop sales to tournament participants.
Here's a guy with the right idea!!! I would have absolutely no problem with that, including the $5 fee to play, although the preference would be making your 6 of 6 / 1 advance into a 2 advance, then a 2 of 6 / three advance (or 6 of 6 / three advance then 3 of 6 / two advance). Folks, I know I've beaten this dead horse before, but I'm going to do it again. I bowled tournaments for decades against a "vig" that was usually 25% or 30%. After the first year, gettin' my feet wet (so to speak), I made money every single year. Is this bragging? Not the intention at all. It merely illustrates that a decent tournament player can beat the vig, and those who cannot will either continue to play because they enjoy the competition and camraderie - or they quit playing. Since all of these tournaments were open to almost anyone, there was an endless stream of new players taking their shots at it. Unfortunately, we have lost, and are losing, many good open-entry BJT's for the stated reason that there wasn't enough side action. Well, DUH! With the "don't ask - won't tell" attitude from the host casinos regarding amount of side play desired during a tournament weekend, what do they think is going to happen? IMHO, that same attitude is heavily responsible for the decrease in entries for invitationals, too. I've gotten smoked by two casinos in the past year after trying to qualify for an invite to their BJT's and I'll be damned if I'm going to try that again. Both conversations went something like this, after I'd already left town and couldn't improve the situation: "I'd be very grateful if I could get invitations to your BJT's. Did I run enough action to qualify?" "No, you were close but it wasn't quite enough." "Really? Wow, I'm sorry, I honestly thought it had to be plenty! How short was I?" "Can't tell you that. Just play some more and ask us again." "I'd be glad to, but can't since I'm 2,000 miles away. Can I pick up where I left off next time I'm there?" "No, you'll have to start all over again." "I was afraid of that but I understand. OK, next time I'm there, how much action do you need?" "Can't tell you that, either." It's a frickin' joke. They cancel events due to unacceptable side action, or they shoot themselves in the foot by severely self-limiting the BJT invitations, yet they insist on keeping secret the very information that would stand an excellent chance of fixing the problems. Certainly hope I wasn't included in that! I've ran a ton of side action at every single BJT that I've attended. Even at Winstar, where the game choices were some of the ugliest I've seen in years. Therein lies the answer. Poker tournaments are run with an attached fee to cover expenses and maybe even make some $$$ for the house. The house also knows that they will get some action from some of the players - as well as spouses/friends who accompany the tournament entrants. Since the entry costs are set up to insure something for the house, everything else is gravy. As such, they can offer the tournaments on an "open" basis. If this same concept was used for BJT's, we'd actually have a good chance to develop new BJT junkies. As I see it, the only folks who would balk at such a concept are the old-school BJT gunners who are accustomed to 100%+ prize funds. Those days are going, going, gone.
All your points on your last post are well taken and valid for the most part, LeftNut. What we need now is a consensus on the fact that BJTs are indeed in great trouble and will go the way of the dinosaur if the present course continues. What I mean by the present course is the way tournaments are handled as well as the rules. Playing tournaments against the dealer will never result in a real popular game. We need to break loose of this and create a game that pits player against player not player against dealer. I personally hate the constant comparison of Blackjack tournaments to Poker tournaments. In my opinion that's comparing apples and oranges. In poker the casino makes about the same amount per table whether its live action or tournaments - that's not the same as Blackjack. In poker each player plays directly against the other players and can take the other players chips. Not so in Blackjack. In poker you bet after you see your cards except for blinds. In Blackjack you bet before you see your cards. In poker you take as much time as needed to make a decision (unless someone "calls the clock"). In Blackjack the time can be as short as 10 seconds. And of course in Blackjack you have the requirement of wasting that valuable 10 seconds counting opponents chips but in poker you can ask for a count. I could probably come up with a few others but there would be no point. The point I'm trying to make is that Poker and Blackjack are two completely different games and any comparison is invalid so why even keep bringing it up. The only similarity is they are both played in a casino - that's it.
Can't help with that question, perhaps one of our Vegas local members can shed some light on this for you. I was in Vegas for a week, Friday to Friday, before the Disaster in Durant. Deb was there for the weekend, then our friend Bruce (posts here as DRSLYR) was there from Monday to the following Monday. Deb and I played the AZCharlie's on Saturday, then Bruce and I hit quite a few of the mini's through the week. Bruce played that Cowboy Bob's BJT in Laughlin after I'd left for Durant, more on that in another thread. The AZCharlie's events were run extremely well. Professional all the way. At least 2 advance from every table and you can increase your starting stack from 500 to 700 with a $2 tip to the dealer before action commences. There is also a progressive bonus for the champion, starts at $100 and increases by $100 every tournament until the champion is a "qualified" player, meaning he/she has given a certain amount of side action that day. The quantity of side action required is freely given, an appreciated oddity in this "don't ask - won't tell" world of usually mysterious side action requirements. If one were to be rude enough to merely play the requirement and quit, it would only take a slow player about 15 minutes on their 9/6 JoB video poker. 99.54% return with very low variance. A very good deal. Rampart's events were also well run although there were a few hiccups along the way. Part of my impression is no doubt caused by the moron there who gave us directions over the phone - and caused us to drive 30 or 40 miles further than we needed to from downtown LV. Since we'd started early enough to allow for problems (!), we still arrived in time but were only able to grab the 2 spots left in the entire schedule. The Rampart events like to have one-advance tables, which is a big negative in my book. Plus the prize fund is very top-loaded although they were polling the players with change choices during our visit, so at least they're apparently trying to give the customers what they want. If you are lucky enough to win one of these, it is a nice payday. Even though they were basically well-run events, I don't think I'd waste my time on them again unless I was a local. Talent level at these events surprised me, it was much better than I expected. The average LV mini-BJT player was much better than the average Durant player (although there were a few really good ones in Durant). The unwritten rule at Charlie's and Rampart seemed to require everyone to go all-in on every final hand, a tendency that can be exploited by a savvy player. We also checked out the NYNY weekly BJT and found the biggest joke I've seen in my relatively short career. Recalling from my memory without benefit of the printed rules, everyone plays 8 rounds of accumulation, 10 hands +/-, every half-hour starting at noon. At 4:30 they start calling out the winner's names and you have less than a minute to claim your winnings or you lose. Geez. Looked to me like someone was told to offer a BJT and decided to make it as unappealing as possible so that it'd die and go away. Bruce and I took one look at that format and strolled right back out the door. If you're in town, these are cheap & excellent practice for those of us who have very rare BJT choices at home.
