What's happening at UBT?

Hi

Haven't been around for a wee while but I have done a brief survey of the forums here and at LVA and it would appear that the UBT is in trouble. What's the situation? Is time nearly up?

On another happier note I see that Joe P played in one of Rick's tourneys. Excellent!!! How did he do?

Cheers

Reachy

 

Basically looks like the TOC has been postponed, Barona has turned both of this months events into invite only, And I understand UBT are in the process of scheduling the 2008 tour with New Venues with lower buy in's and guranteed prize pools and i Believe besides Rampart at least one other of this years partners are in this!

 

Not sure what is happening with the UBT event, but Joep advance in both of the Tropicana TBT events each day, but didn't make the finals.

 

Tv

Has it been dropped by CBS?

 

Yes.

 

Wow

That's pretty bad. Do you think it was inevitable? Do you think TBJ/EBJ makes good TV to the layman, not the enthusiast? Coming from the UK I have watched very little TBJ on TV as they have only shown the 1st 3 seasons of WSOB on minor satellite channels, but I have to say, unless you have a keen interest in it I can see it is fairly dull compared to poker. Don't get me wrong, I'd watch it all day if I could but then I'm a bit of a TBJ geek...

Cheers

Reachy

 

Reachy, if you want to see the entire season 2 of UBT, try to work something out with BJMace.
I think he has an entire set of the episodes due to some Nut in the U.S.

 

Welcome Back:

Reachy: Joe P probably got banned for life in Mississippi for winning mega bucks on the gulf. UBT under construction. TBJPA under construction.

Playing conditions at US casinos getting worse, but Sands Corporation lost money, partially from BJ play. It was that Euro team you head with a new system that took them down, right?

 

already pm'd him lol

 

Reachy,

Haven't talked to you in some time - thought you were dead.

The consensus on this forum is that the UBT presentation on TV was not good. Seems like most members stopped watching after the second or third show of the second season. You can read more about that in the appropriate thread in this sub-heading "Ultimate Blackjack Tour".

As for WSOB, most members found it somewhat boring on the whole although better than UBT.

Bottom line is that if members on this forum are not enthused about the TV presentations, how can we expect the general public to be interested?

 

Just sleeping

I personally think the UBT business model is wrong and based on a false premise: that TBJ (albeit in a modified format) can be as interesting and exciting to watch as poker. There are so many reasons why this isn't true, and it will never be true, no matter how much you tinker with the format and rules. All this doesn't matter of course, we love the game, but that is besides the point. TBJ will never be any more than a minority sport when compared to poker.

What's needed is a "Late Night TBJ" series (the Brits will know what I am referring to) to generate interest at the grass roots and build slowly from there.

Cheers

Reachy

PS. toolman, I am not dead, I just had my eyes closed. I hope you are having ongoing success in your tourney career

 

Well that makes 2 of us now. Radical "outside the box" changes are needed to grow our sport - not just tweaking here and there. I don't have the answer (although I have some ideas) but until the BJ community comes around to the reality that BJTs, as they are played today, are nothing more than a casino gimmick to get players in the casino, then yes, "TBJ will never be any more than a minority sport"

And Reachy, my tournament success has been lack luster for the last 6 months. I'd give details but it hurts too much. :sad: Besides, it would be boring for everyone else. On the bright side, I'm glad you're not dead.

 

Imho

Televised TBJ will never be able to compete with televised poker for the primary reason the limited number of hands in a BJ tournament forces a conclusion each show and limits the number of hands viewed while bringing viewers up to date verbaly of the numerous hands played during commercial break, it's 1/2 TV and 1/2 radio. If TBJ enthusiasts are bored with the productions we can't expect the general public or channel clicker to become a dedicated viewer.

Poker is a time consuming event much as a "Soap Opera" and allows editing to show only viewer interesting hands played including player interaction and leaves the viewer entertained without a conclusion necessary each series. Poker also is a 7 card game which continues the drama and suspense each televised hand played whereas BJ is wham, bam, thank you ma'mm when televised.

 

I'm gonna have to disagree with you, Reachy and Toolman. My opinion (FWIW) is that UBT had the right idea with the format for TV but screwed it up bigtime by turning the show into an infomercial for the Club.

Think about it. Live poker is about 16 different kinds of b-o-r-i-n-g to watch. Poker is a lot of fold-fold-fold (yawn) until you get the right hand and/or circumstances. Then it's exciting! TV editing is what makes it exciting for the at-home audience, takes out all of the boring non-stop folding. EBJ, whether you call it a carnival game or not, is almost never boring because every player is in every hand, albeit to different levels of involvement, and Russ has the right idea - the frequent elim hands wipes out the min-bet sandbagging.

This should have worked on TV, and I think it would have, had some folks kept their eye on the ball and not gotten sidetracked. TV is about entertainment. WSOP and WPT are fun to watch. UBT's second season was not, and that's not my opinion - the home audience voted loud and clear.

Rookie's right, it'll never be a big as poker on TV. It sure could be a lot more than it has been.

 

TV Blackjack could work if...

I think lots of changes need to be made, but I still think that Blackjack of TV could still work.

I'd love to have the chance to try my ideas, hopefully a casino would be willing to give me a chance to promote a big enough event that we could film. I have a couple of productions companies that are willing to film such an event if we are given a chance.

 

BJ tourneys: TV or not to TV

It don't matter bout TV. 5,000 plus TBJ members on this site. St. Ignace will get what, 1,000 not all from here.

I still contend, most BJ players, keep looking at supposed EV and edge and not wanting to deviate, even for potential money win, cause all the "books" and "theories" state you have to do different to make it worth while.

Poker players don't care. They bring their game and you gotta beat em.

Too much BJ BS for players to bring a game. This fixation on playing the perfect table, the perfect game.

No one can play a true count game anymore. And there are a lot of options on, OH MY GOD, darest, I say it,) a CSM or kick me in the A** a 6-5 single deck. Come on, get away from what's supposed to be the bible numbers and look for alternatives. And a large part of that is going to a TOURNEY that has a payout,(gaurnteed, or based on entries) and PLAYIN.

I mean over 4 or 5 grand people on this site and no one including me travels to play?

Blackjack players are the only true advatage players in the universe?

It seems so.

 

tv,etc

Poker works for tv because each hand is self contained - there is a definite conclusion after each hand is played out - each hand is a comlete mini-drama - tbj is different - there is no 'result' until the final hand - and the skill is in how you play over the whole series of hands - not just one hand - it is very difficult to show that needed continuity without showing absolutely every hand and analyzing the play of each hand - and tv really can't do that - when you collapse a tbj table down to a few hands - all the strategy and skill is removed for the viewer

the emphasis on 'positive equity' that a lot of tbj players have - is a fear of relying on their own skill to win - poker tourneys are raked - and the players go into them knowing that they will have to play skillfully to win - tbj players don't want to face that situation - so look for tourneys with sufficient positive equity so that the average unskilled player would win money over the long run - before they are willing to play

bottom line - if you are a skilled player - you will do well even in a less than 100% equity tourney - if you are not skilled or only marginally skilled - then you need positive equity to make money - I think the emphasis that tbj players have on finding tourneys with good equity and how upset they get over tourneys without large positive equity speaks for itself - we all want positive equity - but - if you depend on it - then you need to seriously upgrade your skills - not whine that the casinos won't hand you money for nothing

as long as tbj players demand that the casinos gaurantee them a profit (meaning a positive equity tourney) before they will play - casinos will see tbj as a promotion - target it for their highrollers and regular players - and want to keep skilled players out of it

tbj needs raked tourneys - and players willing to put their skills on the line - so that tbj becomes a profit center for the casinos - and then the casinos can run their tbj tourneys as they do their poker tourneys - and skilled players will have a legitimate opportunity to exercise their skills - without raked tourneys tbj will have no future - other than what we have now - occassional promo tourneys where skilled players aren't welcome and with carnival game rules - to get raked tourneys - we need players with the guts, and skills, to be willing to play in them - right now, we don't seem to have that

 

RKuczek,

Excellent post - lays it on the line. This in particular needs repeating:

*********************************************************

Noman,

Although this site has thousands on members registered, very few are active and the vast majority haven't been here for years.

St. Ignace pulls in 125 to 150 per tournament, not 1,000.

 

There doesn't seem to be much reluctance to pay the house 10% online. Why doesn't the same model work for live games?

I suppose travel costs are a factor. But events offering three or four tournaments, plus Sit and Gos, held over a weekend, ought to be a good way to dilute such overheads.

 

First of all, to Noman - St. Ignace intentionally limits the entry field for their tournaments. Although it's a very nice casino, especially by northern Michigan standards, it's still rather small when compared to many other facilities that we've all seen.

I was discussing this very subject with some very talented bowling tournament friends of mine last night, and I realized that none of us had ever - ever! - bowled anything other than Professional Bowler's Association events that had positive equity as defined by TBJ standards (PBA events typically had added sponsor money). There are always fees taken out for the games bowled, tournament operational expenses, etc. - what we call "the rake" in poker or TBJ. Yet, all of us who were present last night have managed to turn a tidy profit over the long run. Skill will overcome a less-than-100% equity situation in any competitive tournament as long as the "rake" isn't obscene. Those players less skilled will eventually fade away, and will be replaced with new players anxious to compete.

RKuczek is right in a big way. Live TBJ with open entry will never be popular with the host casinos until they've got a built-in profit as we see in most poker (and bowling) tournaments. For those who have enjoyed the over-100% TBJ's with open entry in past years, I'm happy for you, and quite jealous because I didn't discover TBJ until a year ago. But it simply cannot continue this way if we want to see TBJ become a juggernaut even remotely resembling poker.

TBJ's which are run as a business, similar to how Rick J. does them now, will also eliminate much of the hand-wringing over those players who show up for the tournament but don't generate enough regular play in the casino to make it worthwhile to their bottom line. Profit generated from regular play is why a casino will run a 100%+ TBJ, and we all know this. If the casino was guaranteed a profit from the entry fees alone, the entire matter of Tourney Turds (as Max Rubin calls 'em) would become a moot point.