Who owns Bet21/UB?

I think it is high time we get more info on these sites...

Certainly some of the sponsored "PROS" here have this information. I know Phil Helmuth wears UB stuff all the time and Annie Duke may be on Bet21 staff...but how about the others...Dave, Ken E ..the Legend..(thats what he calls himself now since he won a 7 seat invite only event...lol)

Id like to know who the owners are if Im going to continue investing my money at these sites....

I have a bunch of fairly small complaints but Im not getting any results from these sites as far as CS goes...nor are suggestions for improvement even being acknowledged let alone adopted...

I havent seen one change yet that frees up my bonus dollars or awards me any bonus for playing this game...even the worst B&M offer some type of comp and online sites (with no comparable overhead) usually have program of comps too.

I understand that these sites are holding a free roll but lets face it....its an unenjoyable mistake of a free roll that is not only not fun but it teaches the incorrect way to play the game....unless the idea is to simply bomb in every hand ..which BTW I had a paid sponsored PRO tell me and the whole 10 dollars game table he was entered into was a very good stratagey.

I think it is wrong for a paid pro to give such poor and incorrect advice to those who may just be learning...I think this mans game is normally poker but he and his GF are invited guests on the TV show and he claims that he taught his GF to play....and his idea is to play at 10 dollars tables and max bet ? Thats what he was doing and when someone mentioned "ploppy play" he felt the need to state his position and that this was good strategy....I will agree it is probably good strat if you have absolutly no skill or experience at the game....but that is not what he was teaching...

I didnt like the idea that a pro was giving such bad advice and frankly I wondered what he was even doing at such low stakes tables....must be hard up.

It certainly wasnt good for the game of mostly newbies for a lot of reasons. And to me it seems a little unfair (I know Wah wah) that these guys are getting invites to play and appear on tv but then being such poor ambassadors of the game....its just not right and the behavior should be pointed out.

I see 500 -700 people signed up for the free rolls....but I see the same 75 or so playing the regular EBJ game....Are they asking why arent the free rollers trying out the regualr games??? Even low stakes 1 and 5 dollar sit and goes??

It wouldnt be because the free rolls are giving such a bad first expeience would it?

Still no word on the bonus promise.....we got web sites of certain
pros that promise (play me) but are nothing more than links to Bet21 web site so that when you click to enter a game and a share of "25,000 dollars" all you get is linked to Bet 21...thats just false advertizing in my opinion...(got that one in my email just today)

Any way those are just a few reasons Id like see full disclosure of ownership ...Im trying to help them...perhaps the owners arent hearing what the non paid non invited regular "Joes" are facing when they enter the site...

Oh well....beware of "pro" advice that claims that it is a good idea to go all in on the first hand...and I guess the bonus checks are still in the mail this 5th day of Jan , 2007.

 

Too many freerolls

It still amazes me that so many people play the freerolls. The majority are non-TBJ players playing in a +EV game at no cost and they have no interest in playing TBJ beyond that. Pull all the freerolls, bar one or two a week, and replace them with low stakes MTTs to get these people to get used to playing TBJ for money.

Cheers

Reachy

 

Why? I’m being serious here. I really DON’T care who owns the site, or for that matter who runs the site, as long as it is legit, honest and straight up. I don’t know who owns the local McDonalds but I go there for a bacon, egg and cheese biscuit on Saturday morning. (Don’t eat anything else there)

My experience with CS at Bet21.com has been good. Canned response within 12 hours. Personal answers usually within 24 hours. As far as suggestions for improvement – I’ve put in some but you gotta remember it is THEIR site/product. What may be crucial to you or I isn’t to a majority of their customers.

This is a bothersome point here too Especially with Mr. “I know it all” publicly stated it was being taken care of, threw out names of people taking care of it, even supplied a date that it would be taken care of and STILL nothing. It’s not the AMOUNT of money – it is the PRINCIPLE that is beginning to fester. :flame:

http://www.blackjacktournaments.com/bb/showthread.php?p=22432#post22432

 

If freerolls

teach the players the wrong way to play and it is in fact the wrong way then each and every "right way player" here should be able to win in freerolls. But the game of EBJ compliments ploppy play so the wildcats do well.

 

Come on

Freerolls in any TBJ format compliment ploppy play.

Cheers

Reachy

 

Painting with that broad brush Barney!

Does EVERYONE who wins the freeroll do wildcatting? NO

Do ploppies bust out often? YES

Oh and by the way what is the "Right" way to play?

If I go to BJ21.com and bet max and win in their "freeroll" does that mean their TBJ format compliments ploppy play too?

It really comes down to numbers. If you do better than average and fit a final table 20% of the time with only 20 players present you'll be at the final table more often then when there are 2000 players present. Do the math

 

Reach

How many high roller games go above 100K? When I observe many do and I have seen a few near 200K as do freerolls. Its been about 17 years since my philosophy classes but develop an argument

EBJ is a game of skill

I am a skillful player

Unskilled plops beat me every freeroll game

>false argument<

Right now you have the ability to test the theory. If it holds true plopping is the wrong way to play and EBJ is a game of skill any and all skilled players should be able to win a free roll.

Another thing I find interesting about complaints RE freeroll wildcats is many of the skilled players use two step progressions which is a plop play! Maybe its wrong to say EBJ rewards plopping but requires plopping.

 

Wildcat Virus!

Wouldn’t it be great!

DRP

 

Barney

I don't know how many high roller games go over 100K? My experience of EBJ is that end-game BRs are smaller in games with higher proportions of "skilled" players than in microstake/freerolls.

There was a thread a few months back that looked at the probability of "skilled" players winning freerolls/MTTs that had a large number of entrants. I can't find it at the moment but I just re-did some figures that seem to be similar to what was discussed in that thread.

In a MTT with 700 entrants and 5 levels the "average" player has about a 0.10% chance of winning if we assume 2 advance at each stage and they must finish 1st on the final table. A "skilled" player who rates at 1.25 vs. average (i.e. they are 25% more likely to place than average) will win 0.29% of the time. That means the skilled players are 3.05X more likely to win than the average. So if you had 1 skilled player vs. 699 ploppies the skilled player would win every 345 freerolls and the ploppies would win the rest. How many freerolls have you played Barney ?

If you play one of the freerolls where all the final table make it to a TV final the skilled player has a 1.63% chance of making it vs 0.67% for the average, but you are only 2.44X more likely to make it.

Cheers

Reachy

PS. I've won a freeroll

 

Define high roller game first – Is that $20 and above or $100 and above

Second – NOT true. Present some facts and figures. Sure you may have WATCHED 1 or maybe 2.

I’ve played in MANY $50 & up matches and VERY few have gone above 100K.

I suggest you keep statistics and present them here. I know I am keeping very detailed statists recently. Why? Discussions like this make me want to REALLY determine feeling/thoughts versus facts.

What kind of truism is THAT? You didn’t do well in logic class did you Barney? LOL

If A = B and B = C then logically A = C

You’re right. In fact I will begin playing in the playubt.com freerolls again. I’ll let you know the results ok?

2 step progressions! That’s NOT a progression.

Look lets take an analogy of football ok? West Coast Offense – lots of short passes, high percentage plays (championed by San Franciso 49ers in the 90’s). Now running the football up the gut – i.e., smashmouth football (popularized by the NFL central division in the 90’s).

Both were styles of play – both were effective for certain teams.

What is a ploppy in your mind? Someone who bets 1/3 or more of their BR? In that case EVERY BJT player is a ploppy because when crunch time hits people bet large. The grandfather of TBJ, Sanford Wong, advises, “on the last hand, when in doubt put it out” (paraphrasing of course). I saw some great definitions lately from the sister site:

http://www.blackjackinfo.com/bb/showthread.php?t=4461&highlight=definitions

So Barney how do you define Ploppy? Personally, when I place a 1/3 or a max bet (all-in) 90% of the time is fits with my playing strategy. 10% of the time I’m in a hurry to leave (i.e., my wife is giving me dirty looks, I’m late for dinner, I’m tired and frustrated and NOT playing my strategy).

To ME, ploppy play is this: I was in a TEC game betting 500 each and every hand. Made it past EH1. Now there are 3 players left, including me. BR1 125,000, BR2 has 112,000 and its hand 10. By hand 14 BR1 was 25,000 BR2 had busted out and I was now BR2 with 27,500.

I was eliminated on hand 16 when BR1 got up to 100,000 again versus my 45,000. He finally realized that all he had to do was bet min and I was locked out. That my son is ploppy play.

 

Just for the record:

I qualfied for four (4) of the invite freerolls - meaning I made it to final tables in the freerolls

I place 3rd at a final table for one of the INVITE only.

My "bitching" is that it takes TIME and I was too eager to play cash games and it was the overlapping that got to me.

 

Ken's a ploppy!

Well that's what Barney says anyway. I'm pretty sure that Ken uses 2 step progressions when he needs to.

Cheers

Reachy

 

According to Barney's definition you're right Reachy! I for one have played Ken Smith several times and mostly gotten the short end of the stick.

I can say emphatically that Ken Smith is NO ploppy! He's the King

 

Ding

:gun: :laugh:

http://www.blackjacktournaments.com/bb/showthread.php?t=1642

 

Barney

What's your point? That link is to a thread where many different opinions are expressed. There is certainly no concensus.

Cheers

Reachy

 

Im sorry Reach, just read the first post by S Yama. I never found where his opinons were defeated! I think it represents how I feel and also what I have observed. fwiw.

 

4 Thoughts

1. So says fgk re B21/UB CS and my own thoughts exactly: "My experience with CS at Bet21.com has been good. Canned response within 12 hours. Personal answers usually within 24 hours."

2. I also agree that knowing "who owns" the site is meaningless. That will provide nothing to assure anyone that endorsements (or criticisms) are impartial, that they're really good folks, or really anything else.

3. It would be nice if they would get the bonus dollars together and that one aspect has been annoying, but if they don't, that's the way it is and players will have to decide whether they like the games and features of the site as they are. In my view, it is pretty well put together. My guess is that U.S. players, who have almost no other options, will continue there. Others have more choices. I am not aware of other choices that offer a shot at nationally televised tourneys with prizes up to $50K, however.

4. What a great thread (below). And, hey, where are all these guys? We need your posts!

 

Wrong thread

We shouldn't really hijack Rando's thread so I'll say just this and nothing more. I'm very familiar with the thread you hyperlinked and have studied it many times in the past. I also very much liked a thread (which again I can't locate presently) where a poster expressed the opinion that winning EBJ involved greater levels of luck AND skill.

If you want to continue the EBJ vs TTBJ debate then you should start a new thread or re-open an old one.

Cheers

Reachy

 

defeated - no, debated - yes

Barney, I have to admit I really admire S. Yama’s ability to put into words his opinions. I have “edited” some of this to prove my point to you.

STOP! Right from the start the distinguished S. Yama is talking about BJT for dedicated players and financially rewarding. That right there eliminates most of the players reading these posts! Be honest in that when you’re playing for minor stakes it should be regarded as a hobby, fun, stress relief, whatever you call it. It is NOT something one is going to make a living at – i.e., on-line TBJ. Even the most hard-core dedicated BJ players like Ken Smith would be hard pressed to admit earning enough money from TBJ to live off.

STOP! S. Yama is approaching EBJ and TBJ with a singular goal – maximizing EV. Therefore playing hands, styles, skill, doesn’t matter. The ONLY way to maximize EV is to win. PERIOD. Results speak for themselves!

STOP! UNTRUE! I don’t care WHO you are unless you “show me the numbers” I disagree with this premise. Two reasons: (1) you can never have zero variance (unless you know, IN ADVANCE, what the cards will be (or you’re a mind reader)
(2) when you base you entire case on a false premise the case is false – back to our Logic Class Barney. Or maybe you’ll understand it this way, a house built on sand will fail!

STOP! I will add to that sentence, “Some skills can be unproportionally effective depending on tournament rules”, conditions and techniques such as hidden DD cards and secret bets as this introduces skills that are highly effective and subjective.

STOP! Empirical evidence is ancetodal and NOT scientific. I am NOT minimizing S. Yama or his accomplishments. I mere point out this FACT. With so many rounds he has developed habits, likes and dislikes. Since he is dealing with empirical data those PERSONAL choices influence his thinking and logic. It does, however, not change the facts!

STOP! Again another “assumption” and untruth. As one who has played over 1,000 round I can say that there were MANY elimination hands that I did NOT have to go all-in. There were many that I did. How is that any different from a TBJT final hand?

And your point is????? How is that different that TBJT????

STOP! Way, way, way too simplistic and by the way untrue! Min bet until next to last hand then doubling down as necessary is a 3 out of 5 technical program? What is a 1 out of 5 minimum bet all the way through? I respectfully disagree with this entire premise.

STOP! Big, Big falicy here. That’s assuming, once again, that skilled players don’t know how to compensate and make the proper bets. As skilled players you better believe that you know when to “gun for the high” or just take the low. S. Yama, is making the assumption that a skilled player would only bet min on an elimination hand. Highly unlikely – unless all you had in your bag of tricks technical program 3 out of 5 as described above.

STOP! Once again incorrect statement, followed by a contradiction. Incorrect. EBJ doesn’t necessary imply more aggressive play. I know what was written earlier by RK and others but I once again disagree with the premise. Hopefully I will one day have enough data to present my case. Until then it is my anectodal argument. Contradiction is that earlier S. Yama said we can’t compare TBJ with poker tournaments and yet here he does that.

Please do not assume that I consider myself a EBJ extremely skilled player like Ken Smith. I do not! I consider my skills at EBJ good and improving.

I have said it before and will re-iterate that TBJT and EBJ are two completely separate animals, like zebras and horses. Both have 4 legs, mane and tails. Both can run fast but they are DIFFERENT. The same techniques that you would use on a throughbreed race horse should NOT be applied to the zebra at the zoo!

What bothers ME personally is when people cling to their personal preferences and choices and knock other people’s preferences. Furthermore I doubt that S. Yama has played much EBJ. After reading his reasoning I do not expect to see him at a Bet21.com table nor will I see him at a UBT event – too bad.

It is a shame that someone who has that much experience and knowledge chooses not to share with those most likely to benefit!

 

Ultimate Bet

is licensed out of the Kahnewake Indian Reservation in Canada - the same place Golden Palace is licensed - it is regulated by the Kahnewake Gaming Commission - this reservation is the largest licensing/operating site for on-line casinos in North America -

The info on the gaming commssion's web site just lists the permit holder as "Ultimate Bet" -

You might be able to get owner info by contacting the Kahnewake Gaming Commission -

The Gaming Commission says that not only is all software tested for fairness and accuracy before the online sites are allowed to use it - but it also is subjected to monthly auditing for fairness, auditing is conducted by Gaming Associates -

NOTE: 'licensed'- means they have a license from the commission to operate their online casino - I believe it also means that their server must be operated out of the reservation - probably by a server facility set up and owned by the tribe - it does not mean that is where their company is registered as a corporation nor that their home offices are there - they may operate indepently - even out of another country - since the Kahnewake server facility is large and many of their licensees use it - if not all (I am not sure on this point - info available on the web was not definite) - Ultimate Bet may very well use it -

I posted contact info for the Kahnewake Gaming Commission on this site a long time ago - in regards to Golden Palace - just google Kahnewake Gaming Commission and you will find their site -

gaming commission also accepts complaints about their permit holders if you really feel they are treating you unfairly -