Cancel Another Tournament

I would like to know how to be invited to more tournaments. I do not live in Vegas, but can get there. I am invited where I have a players card, but the timing hasn't been right lately. I do play at GPC. Do I just go to the open events, or can I express an interest in the invitationals?

 

Way Off

Game Master how could you really believe that chip counting is not a skill in blackjack tournaments.As you know in blackjack tournaments there is only a few things that the player actually has control of . They have control of how much they bet and how they play their hands .Both of these situtions are factors that depend on your opponets chip counts.Why take away one of the few skills that a player has available to them.

Your comparison to a NFL quarterback is a poor one,haven't you ever seen a top notch quarterback work the clock down in the 4th quarter to allow his team the final scoring chance. His abilty to work the clock is a skill that makes for exciting finishes in pro football.Players winning by 1 chip is not a fluke 99% of the time.These type of endings make tournaments worth watching on TV.

In your poker comparison knowing what your opponets has bet is a requirment if you want to call their bet,or calculate what percantage of their bankroll they are willing to risk on their hand.This is part of reading your opponet and it helps speed up the game.


To allow players to know exactly what other players have bet and held back,why don't we just go all the way and allow paper and pencil and calculators at the tables you are just getting spoiled at Global.

Playing at Global Player is a great thing for working on your tournament game especially if you dont live in Las Vegas where there are daily tournaments 7 days a week.But having all that info handed to you on a silver platter is a recipe for a disaster just waiting to happen.

I cant wait and see all these players come out to Las Vegas thinking that they have their tournament game running on all cylinders and then ask how much is that bet there. ? What does he have held back?.Now we are talking EV and its not their EV it will be the players EV that take the time to work on their chip counting skill.

Remeber getting lucky is still not enough, you have to have the skill to make the right bet and then get lucky to win the hand.I have seen many a player double a hard hand not break get paid and still not win because they made the wrong bet.

Please don't advocate removing one on the few skills still available to tournament players .The casinos dont want our action and it seems like you don't either

 

Damm I hate it

That is when I have to agree with Joep....LOL.

I have said many times that tournament play is mostly luck, however chip counting would have have to fall under the skill part of the game (good eye sight a must).

The ablity to count down an opponents chips and act properly is really the only part of tournament play we have control over, the rest is common sense and luck.

I agree seeing totals or being told totals and or bet amounts is easy, but it also makes us lazy and takes away from the game (tournaments) a big part of how they were designed to be played.

I will agree that a count with five hands to be played is okay and prefered on my part. This will confirm any totals I have in my head for the other players, but the last five hands there should be no counts given until after play is completed.

 

It's not just blackjack...

The GM Wrote:

A good blackjack player is also not playing against the other players, but against the casino. This is why not having a running chip count available during tournament play makes it more interesting (i.e. more mental thought needed).

I consider myself a very proficient BJ player that always plays with an advantage . After 5 years or so of play, I have come to realize that straight AP Blackjack has become very boring (although profitable) and I'm finding that I'd rather be doing other things, life is too short!

I just started tournament play last year and have had some early good success. I find it more challanging than AP Blackjack, at least for now.

I would have to agree with Joe and Rick that chip counting is a skill that should remain in tournament play. It adds a whole other dimension to tournament blackjack that you don't find in AP Blackjack.

Dan

 

I have always operated on the "rice bowl" theory when it came to understanding people and their opinions. This is a classic demonstration of that. The ability to count chips (something I can do accurately, by the way) is what many of you consider to be your "edge" and I can completely understand your reluctance to give up any edge you perceive is available to you. You don't want anybody messing with your rice bowl.

That's fine, but for the most part your arguments are hollow. If chip estimation is a desirable skill, why not hide everyone's chips so that you must keep the totals in your head? Laughable, you'll say, but you're the ones who want to make chip estimation a big part of the game, so why not go all the way? Ah...I get it - you want to keep the parts that you do well, but not make it any more difficult than that.

To me, the real skill in Blackjack tournaments is the ability to size your bets, play your hand properly for the circumstances (like splitting 10s or doubling a natural when appropriate) and "read" your opponents' intentions and style of play. Good eyesight is not required for any of those.

GM

 

Great Idea

What a great idea "GM".While you are at it why not remove the clock on the scoreboard in the football games also.This way the coaches and players will have to guess how much time is left in the game.Or under you theory they could train themselves to keep a running clock in their head.In the NBA lets remove all the scoreboards so that the players will have to remember how far behind or ahead they are.You are missing the point here ,I have no problem with a countdown right before the last 5 hands but allowing exact chip totals for every hand is taking what ever skill is left for the player out of his hands.If you could really count chips as well as you say I believe your thinking might be different. Or maybe your rice bowl needs some rice... :laugh:

 

Godfather Of BJ Tournaments

When the "Godfather" of blackjack tournaments speaks we all should stop and take a listen .I'm just happy he is leaning to my side of this debate :laugh:

 

Ah, my buddy Joe takes it from the sublime to the ridiculous. What do Blackjack tournaments have - by any stretch of the imagination - in common with the NFL or NBA? Nothing, obviously.

On the other hand, are Blackjack tournaments comparable to poker tournaments? Certainly. And, if you all will just look a bit beyond your own rice bowl, you'll see that poker tournaments are at least 1000 times more popular than BJ tournaments, yet many more casino patrons play BJ than poker (although that's changing rapidly).

My argument is simple: Chip estimation is not a skill needed in "regular" Blackjack play, but it has been introduced into tournaments, admittedly out of necessity, however the technology now exists to remove it. Those who are stuck in the past want to keep it, but those of us who want to see BJ tourneys become more mainstream want to see chip estimation removed because it will attract more players. The proof is at Global Player; look how many tournaments they're running each week! Do you not want to see even more, both online and in "real" casinos?

Let me tell you what will happen - you heard it here first. All of those poker players will get tired of losing and will turn to other games, one of which will be Blackjack. So, Ms. Ex-poker player decides to give a BJ trourney a shot. And she'll soon discover she must learn how to estimate chip stacks, something she NEVER had to do in a poker tourney. Well, it's not a difficult skill to acquire, so maybe she'll learn it, but more likely she won't. Sadly, she'll quickly realize that it's a necessary skill, so if she doesn't learn it, she'll stop entering BJ tournaments.

And those skillful players who could still beat her, even if she had an automatic update of the chip stacks will no longer have that opportunity. If tourneys are too hard to win, then they're going to have only a limited appeal.

It's like what happened the first time "pocket-card cams" were tried out; the pros bitched and moaned that everyone would learn their "secrets". Of course, they were wrong and now, while pros win fewer matches, the $$$ they're making are much larger.

No offense guys, because I love you (in a brotherly way of course), but you've had it your way for what, 25 years now? Remember, the original topic here is that Blackjack tournaments are dying! And they are.

Your way is obviously not working, so it's time to try something new. If you're unwilling to change, you're going, in the not-too-distant future, find yourselves playing against only each other; swapping your $$$ back and forth, with the house and Uncle Sam taking a rake as you grow old and bored with each other.

It's going to change - trust me. What the good people at Global are doing is only the beginning. It'll happen at a brick-and-mortar casino; mark my word. And the success that casino will have with its BJ tournaments will cause others to follow. That said, until you understand that chip estimation must die, BJ tournaments themselves will continue to die.

GM

 

Old hat

This chip-counting debate was argued very recently in the "MDBJ2 finally on TV" thread. I found such a spirited discussion to be one of the more engaging point/counterpoints to play out on this site. So to the people who still don't want to agree to disagree, I highly recommend this as stimulating reading material. Game on!

 

I'm willing to give it a try Game Master

Challenge for Game Master. Since you think it is such a advantage to count chips stacks, I'll bet you each blackjack tournament (major blackjack tournament) and let you pick the top 25 players (or as you call them Pros) and I'll take the field every time and I bet I win 70% of the to time minimum.

For you to say a player has no chance in a blackjack tournament is way off base. These is not poker touruaments where you have "DEAD MONEY" players. Anyone in a blackjack tournament can and may win since they are short term events.

I was asked before the start of the WSOB II who I thought was the favorite and my answer was, "There are 40 of them, anyone here can win. It comes down to who catches the cards and when".

Granted back in the 80's when we played 40 - 60 hands per round the better players had a big advantage, but now with these 15 - 25 hand events it is anyone game if their catching the cards.

What will bring players in to or even back to blackjack tournaments is the same thing that is making poker so popular "MONEY"! We start getting sponsors, Major Sponsors and more prize money and we will get the players.

However we need to have players with the right mind-set and that is the casino's don't owe us anything and without them we have no tournaments. These tournaments are a marketing tool for the casinos and that is the bottom line. If their not making money the game is over.

We need to show them that we will support a tournament like this 2 Million event and work off of it. We prove that the players will fill it up and there will be more events coming. Every casino is wanting to find that hook, currently it is poker.

Why can't it be blackjack, it is still the number one table game in the casinos! If we market blackjack right it can be as big as poker, possible bigger because it is faster and easier to play. Most players know some version of blackjack or twenty-one from playing with their family on the kitchen table.

I understand your point about trying to draw new players into the tournaments, but like I said above Money will do more for the tournaments then chip counts ever would.

I will do this though, on the cruise tournaments I will offer to run one tournament with a running chip count for the last five hands if the majority of the players agree. Just because I disagree with you doesn't mean I am oppose to trying something new for the sake of bettering the tournaments. I don't think I can be any fairer then that.

I also want to thank you for your input for tournament play without players like you that voice your opinions we won't get any fresh ideas so just because Joep or myself may disagree with players from time to time please don't stop making new suggestion. We need new ideas to better the tournaments for all of us.

Thanks for your input again GM.

 

Short Memory

Permitting such counts would certainly slow down the tournament, but requiring a skill that has nothing whatsoever to do with the "real" game is like requiring an NFL quarterback to demonstrate the ability to knit.


I took the liberty to quote you:

Since you seem to have forgotten that you were the one to some how mention a NFL quarterback in a post regarding chip counts in a blackjack tournament.Let me to enhance the example as far as a quarterbacks not having the abilty to see the game clock while marching his team down the field for the winning drive and leaving no time on the clock for the other team.That is a skill just like chip counting is.

Your suggestion that the chips be hidden from all to see is absured.Hence the suggestion of keeping the game clock a secret like the chip totals.There are few skills that can be used in a blackjack tournament yet you advocate removing one of them.The death of blackjack tournaments has nothing to do with lack of player support, it has all to do with the narrow minded tournament directors who fear that they have to weed out the skilled players.There is a long list of players who are "Banned "from playing at the "Starbust".Without having never been banned at the tables.

There is a tournament this weekend at the Atlantis in Reno that has a entry fee of $500 yet on the bottom of the invite it states this tournament is not open to tournament "pros".That is the real problem not what you state that players want to play but since they are not made aware of the chip counts they stay away.

I will say this about you at least you were gracious enough to refer to me as your buddy even though I have never had the "pleasure" of meeting you in person.I guess i'm just an easy guy to like :laugh: or do you think that I will take it easy on you the next time we meet on a table if you say nice things about me.I might even tell you my chip count if you ask,after all I play poker also so I don't lie :laugh:

 

Chip counts:

Game master, to suit your needs, there are a number of accumulation tournaments, especially in the south. Two rounds. top thirty go on. There's no need to count chips in those, just go balls to the wall with your expertise.

And the chips fly and the best player wins.

Without ill will intended, there are, or have been a number of tournament formats, that require different skills in addition to the basics.

We seem to be debating here, what used to be the most popular and the Grand daddy payout of the Hilton.

My main point is, whatever the tournament format, read the rules, know the pitfalls and as I've said before, you'll find different houses have different house rules and interpertations of what you'd think were standard.

Play your game as best you can, but you don't p in the wind, you don't tug on superman's cape and you don't mess around with Jim.

 

Well, I'm delighted to be involved in a discussion that is obviously of interest and hasn't yet denegrated into a flaming war. I say "yet", but I know this is a site visited by classy people, so hopefully we'll talk it out although I doubt we'll reach a conclusion. A few points:

1. Joe, my analogy was with NFL quarterbacks and knitting, not the NFL and Blackjack, so thanks for the refreshment, but I think you missed my point.

2. Rick, I never said "a player has no chance" in a tournament. I'm not sure where you got that, because I am very aware of the role luck plays in a tournament, be it Blackjack or Poker. What I did say is basically this: The average player must have at least the perception that s/he can win; let's face it, none of us will venture a dollar on anything if we knew our probability of success was zero percent. The current, archaic way BJ tournaments are being conducted at most casinos give the inexperienced players the perception that it's either all luck or is too complicated. Those who believe it to be all luck will enter enough tournaments to either experience some of that luck or convince themselves they aren't lucky. Those who believe it's too complicated may enter one or two, but they'll most likely walk away, knowing it is too complicated.

3. Rick again: Money is not what has made poker tournaments popular - remember, very few receive sponsor $$$ - the players still put up 95+% of the prizes. What made poker tournaments popular is the hole-card cams, TV and the fact that an "everyman" in the form of Chris Moneymaker entered a $40 online satellite and won the most prestigious tournament of all, the WSOP main event. Blackjack tournaments can do the same thing - it's already happening online at GPC, which is experiencing considerable growth while brick-and-mortar tourneys are dying a slow death. Is that all due to the fact that there's no chip estimation required online? Of course not, but that's what your next "crop" of BJ tournament players are getting used to. With increases in the number of participants, the prize pools will increase and, if enough people are attracted to BJ tourneys, then sponsors may appear. But it's going to take a gigantic increase in the number of participants to make that happen and I believe it will ultimately be the Internet that generates the explosion we all want.

Your offer to try a running chip count in your next tournament cruise is admirable; you're a gentleman and a scholar. And I believe you'll discover that most players like it, assuming it's done in an efficient way. But I'll leave that up to you and we'll just see what happens.

4. Back to Joe: Sure, the "pit critters" hate skillful players - what else is new? But as I mentioned in an earlier post, as soon as tournaments become a profitable venture for casinos - either through a fee or rake - they'll jump on board. The proof, again, is what's happening at Global Player - do you think they're going to bar skillful players from their tournaments? Of course not; they get the same fee, regardless of who wins.

5. Noman: Yes, I'm aware of the "winner take all" style of tournament where chip accumulation is the primary goal, but I think it's fair to say those are in decline, if not already dead; the Bally's tournament in Tunica being the last "major" one of which I'm aware. Regardless, I think different formats are a good thing; I just disagree that those requiring chip estimation are the only way to go.

That's all I have for now, but in the immortal words of Arnold Schwarzenegger: "I'll be back."

GM

 

Is there really another way for Global

You keep on bringing up the way Global-Payer.com does there tournaments.My question to you is ,how else could a tournament on line be held without showing the amount of chips bet and the amount of chips held back ?.There is no other way except the way its done.That in itself does not make it the cure all for the survival of blackjack tournaments.

The cure all is the casinos not closing down tournaments because of their "Fear" of the pro player coming in and winning the money and leaving without dumping the chips back into the greedy hands of the casino.

That is and always will be the death of blackjack tournaments and not this smoke screen you are trying to create about lack of players being to downfall of the tournament circuit."If you build it they will come"

That famous line works for blackjack tournaments also.You see I was able to even get baseball into the mix.That was for you GM since you seem to like sports.

 

Hello, Joe.

From a practical point of view, they cannot do it any other way at Global; no argument from me on that, although I suppose they could do some sort of graphical depiction of chip stacks as they do with the discard tray.

But that's not why I keep referring to what's happening online. My point about the online tourneys at GPC is this: Here's the future staring all of us in the face, but only a few seem to recognize it.

You continue to insist that tournaments are becoming fewer because they won't allow you and other pros to play, yet an operation like GPC welcomes any and all, so how is my opinion a smoke screen? Why wouldn't a casino that charges an entry fee over and above the prize pool want to have as many entries as possible? They might not want pros at their "cash" BJ games, but they could always restrict the play to tournament tables.

No, Joe, it's not that simple - your ricebowl is one of very few in that part of the game; whether pros play or don't play isn't the point. What IS the point is that casinos have used BJ tournaments as loss leaders, you and others have had it good and now the party's over.

Getting back to the future, the Internet holds the most promise for attracting large numbers of people to just about any activity, let alone BJ tournaments, so ignore that aspect at your own peril. People will learn to enjoy BJ tournaments online and when they go to a brick-and-mortar casino to try one there, they'll almost undoubtedly be disappointed by how it's conducted, assuming it's conducted as most are today.

Why not make it easy for people by trying to emulate, as closely as possible, the online experience at "live" casinos? What is there to lose? A few pros will give up some of their perceived edge because chip stack estimation is no longer required, well - honestly - who cares, other than the pros? But even the pros will have reasons to rejoice because the number of tournaments will grow, now that it's a profit-maker for the casinos and the number of players will increase because the "live" tourneys are just like the ones they run online.

As I said before, this is going to happen - it's only a question of where and when. Those who stand to gain the most from it are the ones who are doing the most to stop it from happening, which is what I don't understand. The answer I seek is probably found in yet another sports analogy: "Not everybody can hit the long ball."

GM

 

Long Ball vs.Strike Out

You are right not everyone can hit the long ball and thats why they pay the long ball hitters all the money to do it.If you want to lead the campaign for you and others who can't hit the long ball go right ahead this is the USA .The long ball hitters train year round to keep the skills sharp as do the Tournament "Pros" either join us and learn the skill or continue with your smoke screen to cover the fact that you would perfer everthing (chip counts) be handed to you on a silver platter.

Your position that the casinos will let all play if they can make money on all players who enter is just not true.The "Starbust" which makes money on every tournament they hold because they do not return all the money collected would under you theory want as many players as they can get,yet their atttendance has been on a steady decrease year after year.Ask Rick J. he submits a list of players that want to play and he is shot down everytime.

Do you hear the umpire telling you to take a seat, you have struck out on this at bat !!!

 

chip counts

GM,

I get it!

tgun

 

Most Of Us Get IT

At least SWOG and for the most part everyone else gets it if we can only get GM to see the light.