Chip counts. If GM is who i think, there's a simple end to this debate. GM can use his influence to develop a tournament at a site he's wooed, run the tournament under his rules, negotiate the tv rights, establish the prize pool and take a cut and watch the money roll in from all the players he expects to play his way.
Station Casions Cancels Another One Last Wednesday, Station Casinos held a BJ tournament for all Station Casino employees (I ain't one). First prize was $2000 guaranteed with a 100% payout. Less than 10 employees signed up, and the tournament was cancelled. This shows the industry's interest in BJ tourney's and by extension, the public's interest as well. Game Master makes some very valid points. If the public can't be drawn to BJ tourneys (as they are to poker) ,then BJ tourneys are surely doomed to go the way of the dinosaur. If the public can be drawn to BJ tourneys then Casinos, Online websites, Satellites,TV,and sponsors will all be there for the glory. It's understood that BJ tourneys are just not profitable for casinos. Most BJ tourney participants are freeloaders. I recently asked a downtown (LV) Casino Manager why he doesn't have BJ tournaments. He said that the only event that is profitable for the Casino is Slot Tourneys. Slot players give the casino the action they want. They sit at those blasted machines as soon as they're done with each of their sessions-and the slot tourney is always filled. My wife plays 2-4 slot tournaments a month, and the casino$ just LOVE$ her. Parentetically, I once suggested that she practice slots by throwing money in the toilet and then pulling the lever :laugh: (I got hot tongue and cold shoulder for dinner ) BJ requires more skill than pounding a slot button, but I'm afraid that the game has to be "dumbed down" in order to attact the "recreational player/novice". Those of you who have input with the casinos or are planning live tourneys need to rethink all issues. Status Quo will be lethal. What should we do? Wait for the annual $2MM tourney? How many players will put up/can afford $1k/month?? By the way, how many BJ tourney "Pros" are there-40?50??100???. That won't carry tournaments. As Rick Jensen said, 70%+ of the tourneys are won by the unknowns NOT by the "Pros" To underscore this point, how many "Pros" were there at the WSOP final table? Answer:None. God bless Chris Moneymaker and Raymer! The game needs to be shortened. Slow playing 25 out of 30 rounds (or 10 out of 15) doesn't make good TV. Boring! A rake by the sponsoring casino is a must. I don't object to players using Basic Strategy cards AND/OR pencil and paper. After all, most recreational players have a problem adding, subtracting, multiplying and dividing Can you imagine? There are hundreds of BJ dealers employed by Station Casinos. They generally know Basic Strategy. They can count chips as well as any of the "Pros" and they can size bankrolls as well as any of the "Pros". Why aren't they contenders? I suggest that counting is important but
Station Casino Cancels Another One-Continued (Sorry I hit the Wong Button) Chip counting is important. But If it was of the importance that some of you suggest, then BJ dealers should be dominating BJ tourneys. The prize money of even the small tourneys would equal a months wages @ less than $6/hour. You know that dealers are not contenders. Rick Jensen offers to keep the count for the last 5 hands. That will be very well received as long as the count is posted quickly and accurately. I feel that chip posting is a look into the future and does not pose a threat to the "Pros". The times they are a' chang'n.
Not Just Chip Counting Its not just chip counting there are other areas of skillful play that seperate the novice from the pro.If your theory about BJ dealers were correct and its not, the same would go for poker dealers.A standard opinion here in Las Vegas is that Poker dealers make the worst poker players.The same holds true for blackjack dealers just because you deal the game does not make you a skilled player. Most poker dealers live paycheck to paycheck because they can't stay off the poker tables, and they don't play a winning game. Tournament blackjack is not even in the same time zone as live Blackajck, the sooner everyone understands this the sooner there game will improve. Here is a teaser for blackjack players who think they know all about tournaments.Should you stand on A-6 (soft 17) in a tournament against any dealers up card.? Or would you always hit that hand Tournament players let the newbees work on this problem because I know a lot of you who post here know the correct answer. This is my point, its a lot more than just counting chips, my bet would be that 95 % of dealers could not tell you what you should do with this hand.Especially against a dealers up card of 8-9-10-A
Quick and to the point Why are Blackjack tournaments failing? Heres a list of several reasons (which have been covered already). Not in any particular order. 1) Poor management from marketing and or casino excecutives. A) They don't know and don't care. They work for the company and not willing to try any new. Scared to try anything new for fear of losing their jobs. I can understand that, most of these people are put in there postion from Valet parker or Front desk and don't know or have any marketing skills. B) Grouping Remember when several of the casinos offered back to back to even back tournaments it was a great draw. Out of towners could come play 2-3 major tournaments and even some nice mini events on only one airfare. Now they want you to only come out to their tournament and schedule them with gaps between the events. C) No Pros allowed! I Hate, I say Hate that term Pro! Let's bet, I'll take the field every tournament and you pick your Pros and I can retire (very well off). All players that are willing to play and not be disruptive should be allowed to play in a tournament. The casinos want to put on a top notch event with high prize money to draw in lots of players, then tell about half the players wanting and willing to play "Sorry" you can't play and end up with a low turnout and then complain their losing money....DUH! If they have players they don't want to play the regular tables fine, but by keeping players that are willing to pay the tournament entry fees out thier cutting their own throat and hurting all the other players by having to lower the prize pool. * I did just play a very nice tournament at the Venetian last week and it was very well run, but it was just a VIP invite only event. We need events open for everybody willing to pay the entry fee, They want to comp the big players no problem that is just good business. 2) Dead beat players You know who you are, don't give the casinos any play and "BITCH" about everything and everybody unless you win (Then it okay). You come with your hand out and expect the casinos to pay for your trip, stay, and food and when they don't add more money to the prize fund you think their cheating you. If I pissed you off guess what "I don't care" your killing it for the rest of us. 3) Prize money Poker has it we don't. Players came in every month at $1,000 entry fee to try and win 1 million dollars. If we just had a $300 to $500 entry fee (each) for two $100,000 tournament (Open to all) back to back every month we could pack them up. Players want to win BIG MONEY and win it now. Poker gives them both, the formula works people. 4) TV, Online satellites, and Corparate sponsorship These are all things we are going to need to compete with poker events. A) TV is just starting to come into play, like it or not some hokey formats and gimmicks will have to be used to make Blackjack more exciting on TV, and the biggie more money. Really poker is not that exciting on TV if you say their playing for $10,000 first prize. How many of us would watch WPT if they were playing with betting limits of $5 - $500 chips and only betting $5 minimum per hand? B) Online satellites should be the next thing coming out. Most players are scared to play online, this doesn't help. There are bugs they are trying to workout so we will just have to be patient. Global-Player puts on nice little weekly events and just hosted a nice tournament yesterday for this site, but Putting up $100 - $200 to play online? I'm not sure I want to risk that much YET,and get knocked off line and told sorry it was my system that messed up. C) Corpartate Sponsorship is needed to get us over the hump. Even if we get 250 players at at $300 entry fee and re-buys that will only put us around $100,000. With some corparate advertising dollars we could get up to $125,000 to $150,000 per event. Bottom line is we need to show the casinos that they can make money from hosting these events. Once we do that we can worry about the other items on the list. As far as if the players know the chip count or not doesn't matter, that is way down on the list.
Thanks, noman. You got me thinking. While I thought I had pretty well said all I was going to say on this topic and was just going to let time prove I'm correct in my predictions, your note has allowed me to basically sum up all the arguments: If developing BJ tournaments at brick-and-mortar casinos were my desire, avocation or job I would first ask one question: Do I want to design a tournament that will attract a lot of players, or do I want to design a tournament that I and my friends have the best chance of winning? GM
Cold Deck GM you cease to amaze many of the people that post here including me. How in the world could you set up a tournament that you and you friends could win or at least have the best chance to win without cheating . Trust me in a town that has attempted to fix or rig drawings and been caught, and in the old days cheat customers. If your suggestion or crazy idea was possible it would have been done a long time ago. Lose the idea that players dont want to play in tournaments because casinos won't hold their hand and let them know what the chip totals are. Casino's just down right hate tournament players. Trust me on this one I have been trying to find a home for the New 2 Million Dollar Tournament . No one know's better than I what their feelings are about Tournaments and the players that play in them. Its looks like you have found a comfy spot at Global and my suggestion is to stay right there and help build up Global's turnout. Need I remind you that Global could not get enough players to hold a tournament for the cruise.Even with the chip totals being right there for the players on a silver platter. If you would like to help your friends and yourself win some tournament my suggestion is to Practice Practice Practice the few skill that are available to all players for the taking. Learn how to count chips, learn how to realize that your hand need's to be acted upon even though this is not a normal "Live Blackjack" play.Learn the "Surrender" Trap.This is where you should start if you want to improve your tournament results.
GM and tourney's GM my pig wrestling friend. You know why do certain people like to argue. It's like wrestling pigs, they enjoy it. I don't want running a tourney to be your avocation. Just suggesting that you could prove your point by developing one as you suggest. While a number of your points, heck maybe all may be valid, there's no proof. The chip counting isn't the only thing in all the old style tourneys. Each house had a variation from the others and different house rules of play and deciding disputes. It wouldn't matter, given current casino attitudes and conditions,( as Joep says), if a tourney were run your way or not. But in the overall scheme of things, any player has to know the house rules, the rules of the tournament, good basic play and better tournament play adapted to the conditions of the tourney, no matter how it's run. AND JOEP. I love the surrender trap. Too bad it's only available in tourney's that offer surrender.
Fee of BJ tour. I think that we need fee for casino for future BJ tournaments keeping alive. The comprise solution is that: Casino will collect fee say 7 -10% of the entry fee but Casino will give back the SAME value fee (7-10%) in Casino COUPON or comp. So the player can use it as hotel bookings or other use on the casino operated shops/restaurant .... This ways Casino will get some real return in front of their eyes on top of what players will spend ( like playing other games ). I think a lot of Casino would happy to see this and as players we should endorse this, since we did get some value back from the fee as well. Just my two cents, The snow_bird. QUOTE=Joep]The weekly Tournament held every Thursday night at Fiesta Henderson has been suspended until September.This is in effect starting tonight.They say they will bring it back, but this is usually the first sign of trouble for a Tournament.Players need to support the few casinos that still host these full pay Tournament.We have seen many tournaments come to and end in the last 2 years and we have no one to blame but ourselves.Side play is essential to keep these tournaments alive, or a fee for the casino just like poker tournaments is the way of the future.I have seen these first hand in my attempt to find a home for the New 2 Million Dollar Tournament.The casinos just don't like tournament players and their lack of side play.Does anyone see a better way ?[/QUOTE]
Fee for BJ tournaments think that we need fee for casino for future BJ tournaments keeping alive. The comprise solution is that: Casino will collect fee say 7 -10% of the entry fee but Casino will give back the SAME value fee (7-10%) in Casino COUPON or comp. So the player can use it as hotel bookings or other use on the casino operated shops/restaurant .... This ways Casino will get some real return in front of their eyes on top of what players will spend ( like playing other games ). I think a lot of Casino would happy to see this and as players we should endorse this, since we did get some value back from the fee as well. Just my two cents, The snow_bird.
Hello, all. Joe, first of all, I'm not suggesting - in anyway whatsoever - that you or I would ever be involved with cheating; we both know we don't have to cheat in order to win. What is interesting is the attitude: "Hey, if you don't like it, don't play" or, "If you don't like it, go start one of your own." That's probably not a good way to create interest in what you're trying to do. Every other serious response has listed many reasons why BJ tournaments are failing and they may or may not be valid, but my suggestion, which has found some support from other readers here, is immediately dismissed or at least discounted. Now, believe me when I tell you that my ego is not so fragile that the rejection of my idea pains me. It's just that, other than Rick, no one seems willing to give it a try. Well, of course that's your decision, not mine. It cost me nothing but time to post my opinion and it cost you nothing to read it, so nobody's lost anything. Time will tell if I'm right or wrong. A note to "noman": There's another saying about pigs that might apply here. "Never try to teach a pig to sing. It wastes your time and annoys the pig." GM
No Cheating Here Most important think to realize is that any reference to cheating with my name in the same sentence is not a good thing for the author or the person saying it. My whole case against GVR is for that reason .You are the one that said you could hold a tournament that you and your friends had a better chance to win than others.The tournaments that I have won and there have been a few have been won without any help from rules structured to the bias of skillful play.It was done with just hard work and tons of practice.If you would like to improve your game to a level of winning more than the average player you best stop posting and spend this valuable time to improve your game . Im off to play in a tournament and try to imorove my game even further.Try it you just might fill your pockets with extra chips which you can take home and count for a tournament drill..
Game Master Excellant come b ack. But re-read TX post. He said count down last five hands, which is standard anyway. It's like Joep has been saying and I'm singing here, but it's not necessarily the format, it's the casinos. And get a norman chad for expert commentary, with good editiing and any format will look good.
Actually, I think Tx offered to try out a format where the chips will be counted EVERY HAND for the last five hands. I don't care one way or the other, and I'll be glad for Tx to try that in one of the events. If it's popular with the players, I have no problem with it. I'm starting to waffle on my position again. Joe, would you rather play an event with 100 players and no chip counts for each of the last five hands, or an event with 120 players and chip counts for the last five? If 20 extra players could be persuaded to play an event because they don't feel up to the task of counting the chips, I'm all for letting them in. Whether it's true or not, Gamemaster is asserting that the game would be less imposing for new players if this information were available. I don't know if he's right about that or not, but if there are very many newbie players out there that are too intimidated to play, his point may be a valid one. On a slightly different angle, I hope this Aruba thing produces some rule changes that make these events more exciting on TV. One example I've heard mentioned: The low-bankroll player on hand 15 is eliminated. Likewise on hand 20. I think that's a great step in the right direction. It makes hands 13,14 and 15 almost as exciting as the finish. And again for hands 18,19 and 20.
Actually several new twists Ken the Aruba tournaments will have several interesting twists to keep the TV veiwers watching these BJ tournaments. The low players will be eliminated from the table after hand #15, #20, and #25. They will also offer a screct bet (one per player) that is allowed at anytime during the round of 30 hands. These chances will force the players to bet and hopfully make for more excitement for TV. And yes about the cruise tournament, I was talking about counting the last five hands down, not just with 5 hands to go, but on only one of them for a trail.
Some Movement in the Right Direction I'm happy to see that some "bells and whistles" are being introduced into the Aruba tournament. I don't like the secret bet idea. I don't see it adding much excitement. It certainly didn't in the TV production of "Celebrity Blackjack (awful show) dealt by that great actor-thesbian. What's his name??? Broadway Dave???? :laugh: Rick deserves credit for his flexibility. The right mix of audiance pleasers may save BJ tournaments. I feel that the posting of the chip score for the final 5 hands will be well received. I suggest that it be written and clearly visible for all to see rather than simply verbally announced. Adding/Subtracting from the 5th hand to go should only take a few second. If it takes an inordinate amount of time then it will be counterproductive and detracts from the event. After reading your $10k overlay calculation-perhaps someone else should do the talleying,LOL.
Hidden bet is different The nice thing about this hidden bet is that it maybe used at anytime. Think about it, with the low person out after hand 10, 15, & 20 a secert bet puts a nice little twist on the game.
Aruba I'm dense. I don't understand how the secret bet would work. I understand low stack out, of course. And I still say. Whatever the rules for a particular tournament. The player adjusts.Or should try to to find his/her edge.
I agree that secret bet did nothing to help Celebrity Blackjack. However, with intelligent players using it, I think it could make for good TV. We'll see. As for how it works, the players will probably be given a piece of paper to write their bet on. The bets are revealed after the hand is over. As for doubles and splits, I've seen these handled two ways. In most cases, a double or split causes the secret bet to be revealed immediately. In the other case, I've seen slips of paper that ask the dealer what they will bet initially, how much insurance they will take, and how much they will double for. I prefer the first solution, as the second is problematic with doubles after split, etc.
