Freeplay Chips (play til you lose!)

Discussion in 'Blackjack Tournament Strategy' started by BughouseMaster, May 24, 2014.

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  1. KenSmith

    KenSmith Administrator Staff Member

    Yes, your highest net profit comes from simply playing them on every hand until you have lost each chip.
    Any waiting for "strong" situations to play the chips just means you are sitting there longer, betting more money into the house edge.
    The quicker you are finished, the more money you'll have at the end.

    As for your other point, London is pointing out the same fallacy that I am. Waiting isn't good. Sure, you'll win more money on the actual hands where you use a chip for a strong double, but you'll end up with less money overall if you wait to use them that way.

    If that still isn't clear, I can create another example.
     
    KenSmith, May 28, 2014
    #21
  2. KenSmith

    KenSmith Administrator Staff Member

    I know that line is going to be misinterpreted, but I'm having trouble rephrasing it.
    If there's still an issue of understanding, I fear that another example may be in order.
     
    KenSmith, May 28, 2014
    #22
  3. BughouseMaster

    BughouseMaster Active Member

    Yes, please.... im left slightly confused, but because of all your extreme BJ knowledge I am starting to understand.

    But when you say that i'll "bet more money into the house edge", at ~0.25% they have against me (0.28% - 0.03% Mag 7 advanced with best BJ S17 rules), what do you mean? What if I am dealt more winning hands than normal, like 19 or 20 v 4-6, or favorable splits and more stronger doubles than usual?

    Thanks.
     
    BughouseMaster, May 28, 2014
    #23
  4. The_Professional

    The_Professional Active Member

    Play till you lose chips are just like regular chips except you cannot change them for cash. So, what Ken is saying if you normally go to a casino with $1000 cash to play BJ, just use these promo chips instead and you got your self a $1000 equivalent.
     
    The_Professional, May 28, 2014
    #24
  5. London Colin

    London Colin Top Member

    That's true, but the more significant point that we have all been making is that if you find yourself with $1000 of these type of chips and you would not otherwise go anywhere near a casino (i.e. your only goal is to convert them into cash at the best possible 'exchange rate'), playing blackjack is likely to be the best choice for you too. (But that's emphatically not the case for other types of promotional chips/coupons.)

    On the other hand, if you are prepared to accept a slightly lower 'exchange rate' for your PTYL chips, in return for a guaranteed amount, hedging by simultaneously betting player and banker at baccarat may be the best option.

    It's been linked to before, but a great source of information on this whole topic is available here - www.beyondcounting.com/pdfs/beyondcouponsbjfo.pdf.

    The section entitled 'Non-Cashable Chips' relates to the PTYL chips under discussion here. The document as a whole is a difficult read, but it's well worth persevering with as it contains lots of surprising, counter-intuitive revelations.
     
    London Colin, May 29, 2014
    #25
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  6. The_Professional

    The_Professional Active Member

    Agree-Nice summary
     
    The_Professional, May 29, 2014
    #26
  7. KenSmith

    KenSmith Administrator Staff Member

    I'm not sure I can help you. It sounds like you do not understand the fundamental idea of the house edge. The total of all your bets is subject to the house edge. If you bet more hands, or bet more money on each hand, you'll lose more. What if you are dealt more winning hands? That's an almost meaningless question. What if you are dealt more losing hands? What if you are dealt more pushes? You can't know any of these things before you play.

    You indicated in a private message that your intention is to continue to play blackjack at this casino after you have converted your chips. In that case, please, ignore all of this stuff. Play the chips at blackjack however you like. As long as you were planning to play longer than that anyway (and I mean ever, in your lifetime), your results will be identical no matter which hands you choose to play the chips on. In this case, they are EXACTLY like cash.
     
    KenSmith, May 29, 2014
    #27
  8. BughouseMaster

    BughouseMaster Active Member

    Oh believe me Ken I completely understand the house edge, probably a lot more than most; otherwise I wouldn't demand to play at the absolute BEST shoe game to take advantage of a winning shoe.... instead, I would be like those dime-a-dozen carefree $10 players who dont bother to check the type of table they sit down to play at, be it a CSM, H17, No Surrender game.... I wont do that! When I play BJ in Vegas, it is at a S17/RSA/Surr/75%+ game where I have chances of both offensive and defensive hand interaction virtually cutting the house edge against me to nothing! A 50/50 game essentially. Without Off/Def interaction I'm already at a 0.25% edge and that's close enough to 0% already!! Yes the DD S17 game is slightly better, but the ever so fractional % points isn't worth it for me, since I capitalize on the volatility of the SHOE game and cant capitalize on that if they shuffle every 5 hands on a full pitch game.

    In my PM to you (which I thought you would simply reply via PM as well, which is why I PM'd you in the 1st place), I also asked you the most one could convert $1K in freeplay chips to..... also, not sure why you're telling me to now ignore all this stuff just because you know I will continue to play BJ after I convert my chips because isn't the best thing to do to still is to just play the chips normally anyway? i.e. Regardless whether I stop or continue after playing them does not change the fact that it's best I use them at the BJ table!
     
    BughouseMaster, May 29, 2014
    #28
  9. KenSmith

    KenSmith Administrator Staff Member

    Your last sentence is also problematic, assuming you define "best" the same way I do.
    How about a thought experiment?

    You and I agree to go to the casino with $900 cash each plus ten $10 PTYL promo chips each.
    We agree to play 2 hours of blackjack, and 2 hours of craps.
    We will play identically...
    Betting $10 on each hand of blackjack and using perfect basic strategy.
    At craps we will make a $10 pass line bet with no odds, and no other bets.

    The only difference is where we play the promo chips.
    You play yours on blackjack, and I will play mine on craps.
    Who will end up with more money (on average)?

    The answer: Neither. It's a tie. We will both have exactly the same expected profit at the end of the day.

    What is that expected profit?
    Well, let's put some possible numbers on it... 2 hours of blackjack is around 120 hands. At $10 per bet, that's $1200 in original bets.
    We'll assume a good game, and a house edge of only 0.25%. So, our expected total loss at blackjack is $1200 X 0.25% = $3.00 each.

    Craps is more expensive with a house edge of 1.41%. Let's assume we get the same 120 decisions on the pass line bet in our 2 hours at the craps table.
    So, $1200 in action times the house edge of 1.41%... Craps costs us $16.92 each.

    We started with $1000 (chips plus cash), and we have lost $19.92. We each leave with an average of $980.08 in cash.
    So, I guess you can say that we converted our $100 in promo chips into $80.08.
    And it didn't matter which game we played them on.

    Everything I just stated is accurate.

    Why is this so different than what you seem to be saying? Because you care what happens on the actual hands where you have the promo chips in play, and I don't.
    They both lead to the same end result. Yes, you'll convert the chips better on the blackjack hands than I will at craps, but you'll be losing cash at craps while I'm converting my promo chips.
    At the end of the day, it doesn't matter. Your loss is just your action times the house edge, over ALL the games you played.

    This is why this discussion has no meaning. If you're going to play the games anyway, quit worrying about the chips and just play them.
     
    KenSmith, May 29, 2014
    #29
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  10. KenSmith

    KenSmith Administrator Staff Member

    P.S. For those who are worried about mathematical details, I am ignoring the very small probability that you might go through 120 decisions without ever losing the 10 promo chips. If that happens, I recommend you take your substantial profit directly to the bar and order a single malt scotch. If it still bothers you, repeat the experiment but play 1200, or 12,000, or 1.2 million decisions instead. :p
     
    KenSmith, May 29, 2014
    #30
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