Hilton Million Dollar Qualifiers

Hilton Tournamants

The Hilton is knocked a lot on this forum. I, for one, do not understand why.

The Hilton probably runs more tournaments. in more formats that any other casino in Vegas. Since this site encourages tournaments it's difficult to understand why there is so much abuse.

The first tounament I ever played was an August million $ qualifier. I made the semis, got my 1000.00 back, in regular black chips, and get a free ride to the finals the following May.Since then I get invited to several free tournaments a year, free rooms, free entry, etc. The $1000.00 was one of the best inverstments I have ever made. I have made the final table a couple of times, and have always been paid in regular black chips. I have never even seen a "promo" chip. I have also played in a couple of the suited blackjack $100,000 tournaments, the most recent this past May. Again ,free rooms, and free entry. Because of remarks made on the forum, I made a point to interview a couple of the finalists, and they were also paid in regular black chips, not promo chips.

Now about the mulligan chip. Just like rebuys provide mitigation for a bad luck round, the mulligan chip provides mitigation for a bad luck draw. I think anything that relieves the luck factor in tournament BJ is a good thing, and should be encouraged. As a matter of fact, the one thing I do not like about Hilton tounaments is the absence of rebuys, and the one thing that I would change about Ricks rules is to add a mulligan chip.

Now I may be missing something important here that other members know and I don't. I'm listening.

 

Hilton - more...

My experience is almost identical to Fredguy. I entered the December 2004 $ million qualifier, got to the semis to earn back my $1,000 entry, then made it to the May final tournament and final table! Since then I have also received several invites to their smaller tournaments, and I agree that all of them - from the $ million finals down to the $30,000 events are impeccably organized and run. Everything appeared fair, uniform, and almost no screw-ups in dealing or counting everyone's chips.

However, I won't enter their latest version, and it's not because of the "mulligan" or other rule that applies to everyone equally. It's because they've made it too difficult to win back your entry cost.

At least in the previous $ million events, you knew that if you could just finish among the top 18 competitors, you got your entry fee back - and a chance at the big prize. Now, both of those results are far too remote.

 

What you are describing is how the Hilton ran tournaments under Jimmy Wike. That was the right way. That's not how they do it now, especially for their tournaments that have total prize money of $250,000 or more.

Nobody on this forum disputes that the Hilton used to be good.

 

Hilton stuff

I'm talking about tournaments played as recently as this year.Yes, that's how they do it now.

I do not get invited to the $250,000 or more events. However I would be surprised if they treat their whales worse then their minnows (like me).

I will be playing a tournament at the Hilton next week. I'll let you know if anyone beats me up or otherwise abuses me.

 

You obviously have some learning to do.

1. You say you prefer tournaments to have a rebuy feature. Unlike poker tournaments, where rebuys are usually added to the prize money, rebuys in blackjack tournaments just go to the casino. So, a $100,000 tournament with no rebuys is worth a lot more than a $100,000 tournament with rebuys. Rebuys are a way for casinos to collect money from the players to lower the amount they have to put up for the prize money.

2. You like the free ace and mulligan rules. These help the dumb players and hurt the smart players. Smart players know that to be true. Dumb players can't figure out why those rules hurt the smart players.

3. I do play in the $250,000 events, and what I said is true. Be surprised.

4. If you go over the history of the $100,000 blackjack tournaments, it goes like this:
A. Pre Scott Whats-his-name, the Hilton put up the entire $100,000 prize fund.
B. In Scott's first $100k BJ tournament, he introduces the mulligan rule, and he charges $100 to everybody who buys the mulligan. 1000 people were in the tournament and about 75% bought the mulligan, because they would be at a disadvantage if they didn't. That means that the Hilton pulled in $75,000 in mulliagan fees to offset their $100,000 in prize money. To the educated brain, that means the tournament was really only a $25,000 BJ tournament.
C. A lot of people complained that the $100 for the mulligans was going to the casino and not to the players. So, for subsequent $100k BJ tournaments, they have been raffling off about $5,000 to $10,000 to the players, while still keeping $60,000 or $70,000 for the casino. Most of the raffle prizes are just $100, which just returns your mulligan fee. As an added insult, if you win your mulligan fee back in the raffle, you get a W2-G and have to pay tax on the $100, even though all you did was break even. When this was pointed out to Scott, he just laughed. He obviously does not care about the players.

If you continue to state anything to the contrary of what I have written, then you are either not capable of understanding it, not truly aware of how things have been done at the Hilton, or you are employed by the Hilton and are trying to confuse people with lies. Whichever it is, it will deserve no more replies from me. Ken Smith has said that he agrees with what I have written, and he is a well respected authority on this subject.

 

Well Fredguy, I for one won’t beat you up or abuse you. I will admit that I too wonder sometimes…

Your experiences at the Hilton seem, from what I have read, to be positive and good. That, in my opinion, is what this is all about for the “non-pro” (NP) BJT player(s).

There was recently a lot of discussion about an upcoming event, to be held in Laughlin in August, as to whether is was a “good” or “bad” event. What’s interesting, at least to me, about that whole discussion was that the participants were not talking about the actual event itself. The payout structure, the amount of hands played, the number of players advancing, etc., weren’t disputed. Rather it was about the “overhead” and how a vig of 23 versus 10 versus 6% was so important.

In addition when discussing the Hilton events I read often about how players are “cheated” or mislead. Other people are upset about the introduction of mulligans/power chips or Aces into the formula. That’s fine because God Bless us we’re entitled to our likes and dislikes. However there is something that I’ve seen on this site and that is people forget about when they first started playing in BJ tournaments.

Since I am so often accused of slamming others and being biased I will use myself as an example. My first live BJT was around 1 year ago. All I knew was what I had read from Stanford Wong’s CTS – min bet until the end…and…when in doubt throw it out!

Over the past year I’ve learned so many valuable lessons from this board and the contributors in general. It has given me the confidence to ask difficult questions and to recognize that in certain situations it is sometimes better to deviate from basic strategy or to place unorthodox bets.

A great example was at the last live event I participated in. I knew in advance that I would be betting last on the final hand. Because of that I played in such a manner that kept me in the game. On the final hand the lady on the button put out a max bet. The other players all followed leaving me the low. I took what was given to me, won the table on a dealer 20 and advanced. I think back 12 months ago and realize that I would have put up a max bet and attempted to DD on anything to get the high. Now I know better.

What does this have to do with the Hilton and in particular Fredguys’s post and observations about the Hilton events? Simply this when an event was run a certain way 5 or 6 years ago and is today run differently it may be better, it may be worse or there may be no difference but every player will look at a tournament differently depending upon our goals.

For the “pro” BJT players, example Ken Smith, calculating an EV is very important because it (BJ tournaments) is/can be a major source of income to support his family (once again my assumption and if I’m wrong forgive me). For the “non-pro” like myself I’m more concerned about the expenses involved, my ability to play and enjoy the event. What is the main difference(s) – plenty.

For the NP BJT players, like myself, my schedule determines which event(s) I can play. (Actually it’s my wife who has to give me permission now!) Therefore when I have the time and financial resources I tend to overlook things like WHERE the overhead is going, how much the dealers get, what the EV is. Now to a “pro” BJT player those things may/may not be important but since they play BJT every day/week/month they can be choosier than a recreational player such as me.

My biggest complaint isn’t that certain BJT are “bad” or a “rip off”. No, my biggest complaint is the lack of available BJT for us recreational players. To further add insult to injury I feel that I’ve come to enjoy EBJ and other aspects of BJT like, the power chip/mulligans, because it adds excitement and thrills. However given the lack of events that utilize these formats/add ons when they are available to play I find it disheartening and discouraging that members of the “pro” BJT community feel the need to trash said events.

So in summary Fredguy I think a lot of the comments that we read have a certain inherit bias to them, depending upon your status in the BJT world – “pro” or “non-pro”. Hopefully one day the “pro” BJT world will open up and embrace the recreational players, such as you and me and ask us what WE, the non-pro players would like. Maybe then the world of BJT will flourish and expand. Until such time …

 

Dear John,

Please don’t take this the wrong way but thank you for demonstrating my point. You’ve been around for some time – you joined in 2004 and you had probably played in many more BJT before then. From the points in your post you are an experienced player with lots of knowledge to share. Thanks for taking the time to outline those points.

However there are certain sections of your post that I, as a recreational BJT player, would disagree with you. For example you said that…

From my perspective if EVERYONE gets the Ace on the same hand how can it favor anyone, smart or dumb? Also with the mulligan if it is used as the Power Chip on the WSOB I have seen where the very smart players have a distinct ADVANTAGE over the "dumb" player. Could you explain why you feel that way?

Excellent point and I will not dispute this with you. From the perspective of the casino it’s a good idea because it costs them “less” to put on the event. From a players point of view, the prize pool should have the extra $75,000 placed into it, just like the rebuys. In some tournaments that I've played in, the TBJPA events for example, the rebuy money is placed into the prize pool.

However, for the recreational BJT player who gets invited to this event FOR FREE, whether the casino uses the mulligan fees to offset their expenses or places it back into the prize pool is irrevelent. Why? Because the recreational player is just happy to have a BJT to participate in. Besides from our point of view the cost was only $100 anyway and this is a positive EV game anyway. Is it as good as it could/should be? No.

Ouch! This last paragraph is an example of how the experienced players, such as yourself, get upset with seeminlyg "dumb" posts and it discourages newbies from asking questions for fear of being ridiculed or made to look stupid. Have you ever considered that maybe we just don't know any better?

Now having said that you provides excellent background and information in your post. I can sense that you have a strong background and understand the BJT world. From what I’ve read I can only infer that you wouldn’t participate in the above Hilton event for the obvious reasons that you’ve stated.

However from a recreational BJT players point of view something is better than nothing. Does that make it right? No. Would it be better to have the mulligan money added back to the prize pool? Absoultely. But let me ask you this, what’s better?

1. A yearly BJT where the casino does everything right (adding money to the prize pool, including rebuys and mulligans) and they charge an entry fee or
2. Bi-monthly events where “extras” such as rebuys and mulligans are NOT added back to the prize pool and players get free invites?

 

- Reply to FGK42

- I will answer your questions below. Please excuse the formatting if it doesn't come out well. I am not good at that.

- That's a great question. Given the limited details, though, it is a question that cannot be answered. If you had the details, you could do "tournament math" and figure it out. Pros do this for every tournament they consider. Here's an example:

- For option #1, lets say the prize pool is $100k, $50k in rebuys and $50k in mulligans are added to the prize pool, for a total of $200k. Now lets say that 1000 people enter. That means that the expected value per person is $200,000 divided by 1000 people, which is $200 per person.

- For option #2, lets say the prize pool is $100k with nothing added to it. Lets say the same 1000 people enter it. That means the expected value is $100,000 divided by 1000 people, which is $100 per person.

- So, Option #1 is worth $100 more per person ($100,000 overall) than Option #2. So, if it costs less than $100 to enter, Option #1 is the better tournament. If it costs more than $100 to enter, Option #2 is the better tournament.

- I hope that you have found this information useful and the tone of my response acceptable.

 

Hilton

Let me say this johnreynolds, or whoever you really are.....

I am not a liar....I am not stupid.....I am not employed by the Hilton.

My original post was simply to defend the Hilton based on my personal experiences, not to debate you about anything.

But let me say one last thing....anyone who has the issues with a casino that you seem to have with the Hilton and continues to play there, as you say you do, is either an idiot, or a masochist, or both.

 

Thanks John

Wow, thanks for the response and the reasoning.

What's interesting in the perspective about the Ace hand. I hadn't thought of it that way in the past.

Once again this board has provided me, a newcomer to the BJT world with more valuable information.

Your point about how this pooling of information can be used to help the casino's improve their product is, in my opinion, what this is all about. I want the best tournaments and would love to be able to rate all the tournaments as an A or B rather than a C or D.

While I didn't play in the last $1,000,000 Hilton tourney I can say that given the existing format I will not be participating in this current 1 million event and not because of the entry fee but due to the structuring and other factors which you have so accurately described earlier.

My only regret that we don't have more members, such as yourself, who have that experience who would take the time and explain to the newer members "what it's all about". Thanks again and I hope to see more of your posts in the future.

 

Why can't we? I actually like this idea.

I use to do that when I was still passing out surveys to the players at different tournaments. I would ask the players to list their top five tournaments and why they like them so much.

I as asked them to write what they liked and disliked about different tournaments.

I don't see why we can't do that here.

 

I was wondering if anyone had any additional information regarding the first monthly round of the LV Hilton Million Dollar BJT?

To Johnreynolds: given your prior post and experiences with the LV Hilton, in particular the Million Dollar BJT’s – both past and present, should this event be supported in its current form or should it be shunned?

Did you participate or do you know of any other "pros" who participated?

Furthermore, if the attendance doesn’t increase what is the likelihood that the LV Hilton will simply “shut it down?” and not host the actual million dollar event?

Secondly with only 24 people at the inaugural event wouldn’t it favor the “pro players” over the non-pro players? I mean with the top 4 players qualifying for a spot in the 2008 event a 1 in 6 is a pretty good deal is it not? Am I missing something?

 

I heard it went well...

Yesterday I asked about the new LV Hilton Million Dollar tournament. I was told it went well and they expect more players this month.

I was told they had 25 players at the $2,500 entry fee (this is not an exact count) and that they offered re-buys at $500, I believe they told me they had 10 re-buy's.

Some of the better known players for the first event were:

Anthony Curtis
Joep
Roy Powers
Bob Booker - qualified for the finals.
Little Mahammad - Won

These were just a few names mentioned that were familar to me.

Even with the smaller amount of players, I don't care for the prize payout. 1st = $10,000, 2nd - 5th = $2,500 (only gets your money back), and only the first four places qualify for the end of the year event.

I never have been much for the winner take all type of prize structure.

 

Very interesting Joep played!!!???????? I thought he claimed it was such a bad deal! Correct me if Im wrong!

 

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Say it ain’t so! This is another lesson learned. I was under the impression that once the rules were established and announced that they, meaning casino or entity putting on the event, were legally bound by that “contract” (either written or implied) with the player/participant.

So if I understand correctly it is very possible that while the 4 individuals who have already qualified for the 1,000,000 final to be held in June 2008 can have the rug pulled out from underneath them and find themselves actually qualified and playing for a smaller/different prize pool?

Am I correct in my previous assumption and if so what do you believe the likelihood of a “bait and switch” like that occurring would be?

Now I understand why you choose not to play in that event. Thanks for the information. I wonder if this was an All In sanctioned event?

 

Is the million in cash or promo chips?

There has been lots of posts about the one and out style promo chips being used as prize payouts at the Las Vegas Hilton in some of their other events.

My question is has the Las Vegas Hilton annouced if the Million Dollar first prize is in cash or with the one and out promo chips?

Other questions are, do they use the mulligans in the million dollar event? What about the automatic ace on a certain hand?

 

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