Making the $10,000 entry more afforable...

Guys, claim down...

I am just tossing out options here. There are players who would like to play that can't afford $10K, but might like to sell themself to others and then we have players wanting to buy other players. All I was doing is throwing out options so more players could be involved in such an event.

I don't want any hassles, so I'll just finalize the format and let anyone wanting to do any deals to do them on their own and leave me out of it.

As far as a calcutta, I like the idea if we can do it legally, other wise there is no way I will be involved with it.

Once I finalize the format, the first 16 players to put up their $10,000 entry will be in, any others will be wait listed.

I hear and read posts about alot of challenge matches, but they never seem to happen. I am giving 16 players a chance to very simply "Put up or Shut up"!

I for one can't afford a $10,000 entry fee at this time and I think about 95% of the members here wouldn't be willing to put up that much for an entry, but for thoose 5% or so that would and those who think that they are the best tournament players around the other 95% of us would love to see ya'll play this One on One matches.

 

How's this format?

One on One Match Play $10,000 entry tournament​

The first 16 players to sign up and pay their $10,000 entry for this tournament will be allowed to play. Any others will be wait listed.

I have also re-thought the $10,000 deposit. Players must simple send in a $2,000 non-refundable deposit by August 1st and the balance to be paid by 9:00 am on Wednesday August 15th. Note: players may send the full amount down if they wish.

The format will be similar to the Olympic format, as we will have the players pick for the groups. There will be four groups (Spade, Hearts, Diamonds, & Clubs) of four players in each group, each player will play the best 3 out of 5 matches with the other three members in their group. The top two players will advance into the second round.

In the second, and third rounds players will only play one best 3 out of 5 matches to advance. In the finals there will be a best 4 out of 7 matches to determine the champion.

In a case of a tie with 2 players involved they will play a single match with the winner advancing. In case of a tie with 4 players involved, they will draw to see who plays each other and then play a single match with the winners of each advancing.

There will be a 30 second time limit for the first 9 hands and 1 minute for the final 5 hands in each match of each round. There will be one count after the 9th hand. Each match will consist of 14 hands and will be scheduled on the half hour and all matches will be a best 3 out of 5 to determine the winner until the finals, which will be the best 4 of 7 matches.

Round I:

Schedule: Wednesday 8/15/2007 - 10:00 am – 6:30 pm.

This schedule will be used in each group.
10:00 am - A vs. B and C vs. D.
Lunch at 12:30 pm – 1:30 pm.
1:30 pm – A vs. C and B vs. D.
4:00 pm - A vs. D and B vs. D.
Dinner at 6:30 pm – 7:30 pm.

Spade group will play at tables #1 & #2.
Club group will play at tables #3 & #4.
Hearts group will play at tables #5 & #6.
Diamond group will play at tables #7 & #8.

Round II:

Schedule: Wednesday, 7:30 pm – 10:00 pm.

Top bracket players “A” play at table #1 while players “B” play at table #2.
Bottom bracket players “A” play at table #3 while players “B” play at table #4.

Round III:

Schedule: Thursday 8/16/2007 - 10:00 am – 12:30 pm

The winners of the top bracket player “A” will play the winner “B” on table #1.
The winners of the bottom bracket player “A” will play the winner “B” on table #2.

Finals:

It has been suggested that the finals will be played up stairs on the stage in the auditorium where they can film the final table and show it on the big screen TV’s for everyone to see.

Schedule: Thursday, 8/16/2007 - 2:00 pm – 5:30 pm.

The winners of the top bracket plays the winner of the bottom bracket in a best 4 out of 7 one on one final matches to determine the winner.

I think this is the fairest way to host this event and it will work within the time we have to host it.

 

Now we're gettin' somewhere...

A couple questions/comments/clarifications --

1. Deposits: where exactly do we send them? i'm assuming the host casino, where they will be kept safe. also, what is the refund policy? none? or by a certain date? or if we don't fill all 16 spots? and assuming not all 16 spots are full, do those of us that have paid the entry fee just waste our time, money, airfare, etc going to Laughlin for no reason?

2. Round II: 2 concerns here. One is, shouldn't this be a best 3-out-of-5 as well? The wording makes it sound like its just one 14-hand round, and since a) in Round One we just played everyone else in our group 3-out-of-5, and b) Round Three is best 3-out-of-5, it seems silly to just have a single match determine who advances from round 2. If time is an issue, i notice you have the groups running one after the other, rather than having two or more groups all play at the same time. Spectators can wander back and forth without a problem.

My second concern about Round II is, after just playing against the other 3 people in my starting group, there's little point in me just playing another match against someone i've just gone 3-for-5 with. Either Round One should just randomly pair us up 2-by-2 (like the Poker Heads-Up model), or Round Two should pair the 2 winners up against 2 winners from a different group.

3. 14 hands is good, time limits are good, but to have a countdown at hand 9 is irrelevant, unless we do a 2nd countdown (or give players an exta moment to do their own manual countdown/calculations) after hand 12 or 13. If its just one countdown, that's fine, but randomly putting it 2/3 of the way through the match accomplishes nothing.

4. Last but certainly not least, a comment from an earlier post in which you stated all DD would be dealt face UP to prevent any unintentional flashing of the card by a dealer. I cannot stress how necessary it is for DD cards to be dealt face DOWN, as that becomes a huge component of skill in the later stages of the game, especially in a heads-up format. If we are playing for this much money, then i want every bit of skill to be available, and so far the only argument i hear for DD cards being face UP is that it protects against dealer error, which is simply not something i'm willing to accept if i'm buying into a tournament for 10k. The fact is, if a card is inadvertantly exposed (and it really shouldn't be), you burn it, no matter if it helps OR hurts the player. Its the only fair thing to do, and certainly makes a helluva lot more sense than just not offering players the ability to double DOWN in the first place.


Again, i would like to hear responses/feedback from those actually considering playing in this event, not only to keep the lines of communication as clear as possible here but also to determine how much actual interest there is for this before anyone starts mailing their money off --

-hd.

 

my .25 - inflation adjusted

Rick I like round 1. I would prefer to see a countdown on hand 12 or 13. Countdown on hand 9

Round 2: I would like to see labeled differently as to eliminate confusion. I would hope, just like in a sweet 16 bracket, that the people in each group, diamond, spade, heart and club would play DIFFERENT people in Round 2.

For example round 2:

Alpha, Beta, Gamma, Delta

Alpha has winner from heart playing winner from spades
Beta has winner from clubs playing winner from diamonds
Gamma has 2nd winner from heart playing 2nd winner from spades
Delta has 2nd winner from clubs playing from 2nd winner from spades

Finally I agree with HD on the DD cards. I vote for it to be dealt down. i.e., "DOUBLE DOWN".

I like the time limits and the idea about the initial deposits. Good job. Now lets see who's interested.

 

Good points

First the deposits would be made to the host casino, in this case the River Palms. As far as refunds for not getting enough players and the event getting canceled, Yes, every player would get a full refund of any entry they sent to the River Palms, now if we get a full 16 players and someone cancels they will lose their $2,000 deposit, with it $1,800 going into the prize pool and $200 for fees.

Unforturnately nothing can be done for refunding money for airfares and other expences. This is the reason I am trying to get all 16 players to have they deposits or entries in by August the 1st, so we will know how many we have actually willing to play this event.

Round I, players all play at the same time. We will have 8 tables going at once.

About round II, yes they format will still be best 3 out of 5 matches. I do like the idea of switching the groups that play each other so players will get different players to play against. Same as round I, we will have all 4 matches going at once.

As far as the count with 5 hands left, that is up to the players. Would you perfer no count or two counts (1 after 9 and one after 13)?

Double downs can be dealt down if all 16 players agree to the terms, but whichever way is decided it will be done throughout the entire tournament and I will not put up with any whining should a DD card be exposed by mistake. But I agree that should a DD be exposed it MUST be burnt, end of story. Once we get the 16 players this rule will be voted on and majority rules will apply. I believe this is the fairest way to handle this rule.

I am working on a tournament design for the players willing to put up $10K, when ya'll give me feedback I will work on designing it to ya'll requests.

I think we are get close, very close.

By the way, congratulations on another poker tournament Hollywood, I just heard you cashed another $30K a few weeks back...nice.

 

Rules and Format

In Round I (in case of tie) to determine who's advancing - we have to consider players' scores. For example if Player A has (3:0), (1:3), (3:1) and Player B has (0:3), (3:1), (3:2) then their total scores are (7:4) vs (6:6) and instead of playing an extra round between them we can declare Player A as a winner. Now even if the scores are same (W-L difference) then we can consider the winner by their match between each other. This way we will avoid playing an extra match and use much more important details.
For DD "face down" option I would vote "NO" because any extra piece of info is very useful for skillful player in his/her strategy.
To determine couples in Round II, we definitely need to avoid players from the same group against each other and also, as fgk has mentioned before, any group winner should play agains some other group's second place.
Finally, Rick, I think that before paying money we all need to come to the satisfactory format for everybody, because for many of us the decision to play or not wiill be made based on Rules and FORMAT.

 

That is understandable and I agree 100%

However we need 16 players signed up before we can discuss the rules and format with them. Currently we have 6, 7 if you want to be counted in.

I agree 100% that the players should have the final say on how this event is to be formated and which rules are to be used. At a $10,000 entry fee event for the players why should it be any other way.

However once the format and rules are in place, I will enforce them 100%.

Once the format and rules are agreed on the deposit money should be sent in to assure the event will take place.

As for the DD, I agree with you about them being up, but since I won't be playing my vote won't count.

Back to the format and rules, I think the only fair way is to let teh majority decide on what they want. If we have 15 wanting one thing and only 1 player wanting it another, we should just go with the majority vote.

How does that sound to everybody playing in the event?

 

Interesting. I think that having the DD card DOWN is much more useful for a skilled player, especially playing against other skilled players. Specifically, because it allows you to intentionally HIDE information from your opponent at key points, which becomes instrumental in manufacturing the kind of swings necessary to advance, ESPECIALLY in a heads-up format where its that much harder to swing just one other player (rather than having the field to choose from). Really not much point hard doubling a 16 in the 11th hour if your opponent can just see that you've busted right away -- it makes it easier for him/her to play their hand when the skillful play is to hide the result & leave him/her guessing & potentially making their own DD with a bustable hand.

-hd.

 

I understand you position tirle but on this I once again side with HD.

On any crucial hand having the ability to "hide" your DD card (being face down) makes for more skillful play. For example:

player 1 going first has 12 betting 350
player 2 has 10 bet 175
Dealer shows 7

Now player 1 DD for a minimum amount. Player 2 has to now calculate the odds of player 1 doing one of the following:

A. busting
B. winning
C. pushing
D. not busting and losing

Lets say this was hand 23 and the swing potential is enormous. Not knowing this outcome is a strategic play on the part of player 1. Does it introduce any "luck" into the equation? I personally don't think it does. I believe that player 2 would demonstrate their skill level in know the approximate outcomes and proceeding accordingly.

One only need watch episode 1 of the UBT in the final hand between Ken Smith and HD to understand the heart pumping drama that these situations can create. If only the other episodes of UBT were as good...

 

Details

Rick, you can consider me as one of the first 16 who is willing to play and finalize the rules and format.
I like Tirle's criteria to determine advancees in first round, because it is based on players' performance.
I think we need only one countdown 2 hands to go (both will have one decision to make while playing second).
About DD card:
Hollywood, doubling hard 16 makes sence only if you are behind, and if you bust (face up or face down) you are out regardless of your opponent's action - even if he lose his double. Now if it's not busting hand in face up case - second player gets extra info if he/she is skillfull and may be confused if not. You may argue that BR1 can DD to bluff, but this is not a poker and that is a bad play in this relatively strong field.
I vote "NO" for face down DD card.

 

Excuse me?

Look, i respect your opinion & your vote, but i can only assure you that you're completely missing the point of the value of hiding a DD card. I play on a regular basis with some of the world's best players and have seen them all use variations of this move to great skill and advantage, especially in heads-up situations. It is so powerful to hold back a single chip when going all-in just so you can DD for less, hide the new value of the hand, and leave your opponent scratching his/her head.

Your example is also flawed, wherein you state "doubling a hard 16 only makes sense if you are behind" which is far from the case. Many times an opponent acting after you has simply taken 'the high' on you, despite your chip lead, and DD gets it back while forcing your oppoent to decide if they want to wave off & hope you bust, giving them this new low, or DD right back to try and take the high back from you.

There are also many, many, MANY more examples of how powerful this move is in the hands of a skilled player, but at this point i feel like i'm just giving a free lesson to those who i'd rather 'teach' on the tables, if ya know what i mean But the point remains -- you are vastly underestimating the value of hiding a DD card & oversimplifying its use. And if you STILL don't know what I'm talking about, well... then I probably don't WANT you to know til its too late.

-hd.