It's killing me, but I have to agree with Joe also...LOL. Several say tournament BJ is a skill, take away chip counting and it becomes almost all luck. I for one don't want a watered down tournament with counts on every hand. Really counting chips is the only skill in a tournament, that and the abillity to figure out what is the proper bet once you get an accurate count.
agree to disagree Ok boys, I understand that you feel strongly about this. Considering that you've worked hard to master this skill, it makes sense that none of you want to see your efforts invalidated. However, I really feel that access to chip counts is a necessary evil in the quest to make blackjack tournaments as recognizable and popular as poker. I think that everyone voicing their own count before each hand would be ridiculous and too time consuming, but a requirement that chips be stacked in pre-determined amounts makes a lot of sense. As a player, there would still be some basic calculating required (players are unlikely to have perfectly even stacks throughout the game) plus the difficulty of making a proper decision based upon your assessment. Ken's signature is "There's always a better bet."- therein lies the artistry of BJ tournament play, finding and making the BEST bet in such a short time. Compared to making brilliant strategic plays, chip counting is a just a parlor trick.
Think Outside Of The Box Finding and making the "Best" bet is always based upon chip totals.Playing the hands is something different but still comes back to knowing what your opponets total chip count will be after they either win the hand or lose .So as you should see now chip counting is the most important element in making brilliant strategic plays.If you still think that chip counting ability is only a parlor trick,you need to get out more often into the real world of blackjack tournament play.....
exactly I do need to play in more tournaments. But that's why we're discussing this: several posts offered suggestions geared towards making the game more "lesser-experienced-player-friendly" in order to encourage beginners or casual players to enter tournaments, in hopes of gaining a poker-like status. While I would gladly defer to you on any points of strategy, in this instance my opinion is just as relevant because I AM a rookie. I was responding to the earlier posts regarding the demystification of tournament play that might entice more people to join in, so in my case, a chip count would be helpful. There's obviously no right answer to this one, so I'll leave it alone. I respect your position on this, but I wanted to add my 2 (and 4, and then 6) cents.
Joep has it right I take the side of the ‘chip counters’. From the beginning of my tournament play (Mar 04) I realized the first tournament skill I needed to develop was the ability to know the chip total of my opponents. (I’m still working on it ) It is obvious from the techniques discussed here that this ability is vital if you want to maximize your chances of success, e.g., how can you “take the high” if you don’t know chip totals? Removing chip counting as a factor would detract highly from the game, especially the feeling of accomplishment one gets when your efforts are rewarded. There is no question that the explosion of players in poker tournaments is due entirely to TV and the internet poker sites. Where else do hundreds of players get $10k to play in the WSOP? So, for those who say chip totals should be available with no effort there now is the perfect venue: Global-Player.com With the advent of Sit and Go one-table tournaments at Global, novices (and anyone else) can play to their heart’s content without counting one chip. :juggle: --jr
ahhhhhh!!! I don't see the need for anyone to take sides. I haven't drawn a line in the sand on blackjack beach. We have different ideas concerning the importance of certain skills. I'm brand new to the world of blackjack, and I play for enjoyment. I'm also an incredibly competitive person, and I would consider a great win as the result of outwitting/outbetting my opponent, not simply being able to count better or faster. I never said that having an accurate chip total isn't vital to the decision-making process- but I am of a mind that how you use this information is where the real skill comes in.
Don't fight it...LOL Kalex21 don't fight it, cause it isn't going to change! To have the counts or have player stacking their chips in a certain order would cost the casino extra money for more personel and that just isn't going to happen. What I will agree to do is help you with little secrects for counting chips. Once you get the hang of counting them you to will enjoy playing at a table having a slight advantage over the table. But the buttom line is if you don't have luck on your side it wouldn't matter if the other players counted out their chips for you after every hand.
all in good fun I'm totally enjoying all of this verbal sparring. I'm stuck in the library all day (it's finals week), so I'm combatting boredom and intellectual malaise by making my original point over and over again... So, one more time, with feeling! I don't think that the bj powers-that-be are going to read my post and decide to change the game as we know it. I have merely been expressing my opinion as to the (un)importance of a skill that we should all have mastered by the first grade. To reiterate: knowing the chip count is imperative, how you got the count- who cares? I realise that I am completely alone on this one, and that's fine. You are all welcome to have your views and I appreciate that you respect my right to have mine as well. I'm now going to the local watering hole, so no one need to worry about my unpopular opinions for several hours...
card counting If you want to be the best at what you do then you need to study, train and sacrifice to become profecient, nobody ever won a marathon race training only 1 mile a day, there are no CEO's in the fortune 500 with a GED education and no steroids that will help you count cards. Blackjack tournaments are like life in general, you get out of it what you put in it. Lets not lower the bar, if you want to compete with the best don't ask them to lower their standards, raise your's. They paid their dues and deserve any rewards they receive due to the hours they devoted to achieve sucess and "Pro" recognition.
Que? They blew the keg at the bar, so I'm back early. Rookie- we're not talking about counting cards, we're talking about chip counts. Counting cards is something that I will never be good at doing, and I freely admit that it is an amazing skill to have. And no matter what issues we discuss here, I definitely won't ever have a wish to "lower the bar" or violate the tournament standards handed down by the gambling gods. I also stated earlier that I am an infrequent recreational player, so at this point I'm not ready to immerse myself in blackjack strategy books or card-counting how-tos. Additionally, while there presently may or may not be any Fortune 500 CEO's with GEDs, there certainly could be at some point. Being the recipient of a "Good Enough Diploma" doesn't mean that I'm not prepared to work diligently to achieve the goals that I set for myself. Had you read all of the posts in this thread, you would have been aware that I never said that I wanted an easy way to climb the ladder of bj success, or that card & chip counts weren't integral to the game. I have finally grown weary of this back-and-forth, and obviously none of us are going to change any of our positions vis-a-vis this now incredibly silly thread. Consequently, I'll bow out and allow some other brave soul to fan the flames of dissent. Peace be with you... I'm going to buy more beer. -K
Really enjoyed reading the different opinions to my message dated 30 April 05. Again my the reasoning behind giving us more time to make a decision and maybe an easier way to count chips during a bj tournament was to get more participation, and possibly making bj tournament play more popular. Popularity starts with large numbers of players like poker is enjoying today. Even with a couple of small modifications during crunch time the cream will always come to the top.
Standing Ovation Rookie you words could not have driven the point home any more.If you want to fly with the eagles you need to earn your wings.Anything that comes easy is usually the lazy way out.
'Kay, everyone can stop sucking Joep's cock now I get it, there's a difference of opinion here. But what's interesting is how a simple discussion of possible modifications in current blackjack conditions turns into somebody's opinion being "right" or "wrong"... we've all presented our ideas & yet there seems an insistence on many people's part to have their thoughts be considered the only valid ones... y'all need to chill the F out. I personally have never had any problems in counting other's chip stacks (unless rushed by an overzealous tourney dealer into making a 20 second analysis & decision) -- maybe i've been blessed with better eyesight than most, i don't know. But the concept of being a good tournament player rests solely on the basis of what to do with the information presented; for proof of this, just look at Global Player. Joe claims to have a very healthy win percentage over many other players & i believe him; yet the chip info is laid out for all to see there, proving my point. Joe's a good player, so Joe wins often -- REGARDLESS of having access to chip info or not! Having more frequent access to, or at least being given more than the typical, unreasonable 30 second time limit within which to count those stacks & make a betting decision, only serves to make the game less intimidating for newer players, while giving the pros no less of an advantage than they already have. I understand that others may want to hold on to this archaic method of forced chip counting, and that's fine. Lord knows its a difficult skill to nail down, and those that have worked hard to get good at it do not want to feel like their tremendous effort has been in vain. But ultimately this is a competition based on having the sharpest mind to (as Ken says) "find the better bet" (actually, i said that as well in my first WSoBJ episode this year -- "there's always a better bet to be found"). And in the further evolution of our game, with the advent of TV and more popular casino events, chip counting should -- at the very LEAST, and i don't think anyone would argue this point -- be given a respectful amount of time (like say a minute, especially in the later hands) to calculate -- or have the players accomodate one another by stacking their chips in piles of ten, for instance. The moment we refuse to embrace newer, better ways of evolving this game -- or simply being open to DISCUSS these things without shutting down any new idea that is presented by acting like elitist dicks -- because we hide behind "that's the way its always been" -- we essentially become stodgy old crones who harp on 'the good old days' instead of accepting bringing the game into the 21st century & making it more accessible to everyone. 15 years ago nobody had a cell phone, and few were computer literate. That doesn't mean we didn't embrace better, more effective ways of growth simply because "that's the way its always been". -holly d.
Help Is On The Way Hollywood I'm starting to worry about you last week you thought that BJFAN was talking about you when he mentioned tournament players that were claiming to be tournament guru's when they in fact were not.You blaster off a reply that said you were sick and tired of the never ending bashing of your tournament skills when your name was not even mentioned.Now you are saying that I'm receiving oral satisfaction from members here and it should stop.If you were to put down your poison pen for a moment and read my May 1 post at 11:46 p.m. I clearly say that more time should be given to players to count opponets chips and calculate what their bets should be based upon that observation .But no help should be given to players beyond that.As far as on line blackjack tournaments go how would you possibly know on line what another player has or bets or has held back if it wasn't on your screen to view. so your reference to Global Player's tournaments is hogwash. Give player's all the time they want to a resonable amount of time,I have said it before and I will say it again players should never be rushed .The players that complain the most are the one's that dont have a clue as to what to bet so they believe everyone should just guess at their bet because thats what they did.A blackjack tournament is just that a tournament this is not a open book test, know what skills you need to play in them and what skills you need to work on to improve your chances of being a top money winner. In a side note see if you can post something here without promising to beat the living shit out of somebody,or calling people who differ with your opinions stupid idiots or better yet telling a fellow player they do not have a Fxxking clue.For someone who plays poker why would you ever tell a player that you thought was bad how bad they were, why hurt your EV keep them in the game if this is how you really feel about their skill level. Thanks for the kind words about me being a good player my hard work has payed off as have other players who are always working on improving their game,such as Kenny Smith, S. Yama, Anthony Curtis, Kenny E. just to name a few including you who is always trying to get better I commend you for that, you are willing to put the time in. And finally please never stop me if I'm in the middle of some oral satisfaction .I hate when that happens :flame:
Newbie i thought this site had rules against sexual and violent content. i noticed that in another post hollywood d. threatened physical harm to another poster. i enjoy the tournament debate very much but could it be done with more civility?
My three cents... In reply to Moongate: As I've said before, I know very little about the intricate details of blackjack. However, I do appreciate this forum for the very fact that people freely express their opinions and it's highly entertaining. It's also a teaching aid to those who wish to learn. In the end, this makes for a better circle of thoughtful interchange amongst the cream of the crop. I don't know Hollywood or anyone else on this forum, but I don't think he or any of them would hurt anyone. Words that are injected with emotions, will probably always reap some bittersweet responses. However, seeing how a lot of these players are at the top of their game, their verbal rivalry, in my eyes, is healthy. It helps to keep the new ideas flowing and new techniques developing. So, let the people speak, whether their speech is "seasoned with salt" or not, because that's what having an opinion is all about. There's always going to be a difference of opinion -- ALWAYS! There now, that's my three cents. Smooches!
One more thing... As a humble student here at BJT University, I refer those interested to try the Search function above (type: chip counting). There's a thread titled "About chip counting" started by Ken Smith, as well as other posts containing the subject.
Back in action! Yahoo! E.Princess is here, but BJT's infamous quibbling quintet won't be complete until BJFAN4 chips in... ...and if a 5-way mud- or creamed corn- wrestling match goes down, I want 10% of the pay-per-view take as the idea girl. Good lord, some of y'all make me feel as though I'm humble and unopinionated, in comparison *btw Snapper, thanks for the cue- that was an interesting exchange that reinforces my feeling (though I'm still in the minority here) that chip counting is a silly stumbling block that should be left out of the game.
