SnG/MTT comparisson: is this typical?

Okay, I'm starting to get angry. You aren't listening to me. Chill out your preconceptions about what I've said for a minute and LISTEN! I'll respond to each point I've quoted.


Why on earth would you be getting angry? No preconceptions...Im listening ...but you are simply trying to justify using aids to play a game. Maybe there is no rule on the site against that...but you are certainly treading into ethical hot water. Additionally you are decieving yourself about the whole issue...

I have not read anywhere that using a spreadsheet is cheating. Granted, I haven't read the terms and conditions. If it's cited in there as cheating, I will stop. If it's not, it's not cheating by any consentual rule.


You are reading it here....using this program is cheating...no one is gonna come and arrest you...but you are using computer generated aids and that is cheating in my mind...not only that but you are trying to convince yourself that you arent really using this aid ...you are making the decision...no kidding...that doesnt change it ...If a computer suggests 3 moves in chess ...we understand that you must choose one of three moves...but your oposition not using a computer to do his thinking must choose between a thousand differnet moves ...


I DO NOT slow the game down. If you want proof feel free to watch me play (DavidKay is my login). I am actually typically much faster than others. The reason is that I spend all my time thinking strategy and NONE calculating. If I didn't use the sheet I'd be much SLOWER.


If you didnt have to enter everyones bet and amount you could play much faster so of course you are slowing the game down...As Reachy said though there are plenty of cheater programs in poker and you are developing (just a few short steps away) the same thing.

You could certainly be faster than others....I can rarely understad what exactly some players are thinking about when making every single decision...I wish they would cut the time between rounds to half what it is...that would help eliminate guys like you who are playing on the fringe of ethics and others who are outright cheating.


This may seem counter-intuitive to you, but again I'll ask you to consider that you have ZERO information on my spreadsheet, how I use it, how I play, etc. The reason that I'm fast is that I *already* know what I want to do on a given play. The spreadsheet just calculates how much it takes to do that. It's a HUGE time saver.

LOL....So you understand if you want to hit or stand or surrender a given set of cards...so does everyone else with half a brain or a modest understanding of Basic Stratagey. The only thinking part of this process is what you are having the computer calculate for you....

I get your logic....why do this task that is so easily accomplished by an Excell program...but that thinking is similar to... why teach math in school anymore...calculators and computers can do the math.

Don't be condescending and tell me I take forever to stand on 20 against a 7. I'm not an idiot, and it doesn't support your point. I do not consult the sheet at ALL to stand/hit/etc. Only to calculate bet size. Further, I have gotten very fast at entering other players' totals/bets as they appear. If I'm first to act, it generally delays me by about 3-4 seconds. Otherwise, there is never a delay apart from my newbie strategic ponderances.


Not being condencending to you....Its been my contention for quite some time now that certain players are cheating and the tell is usually prolonged decisions for every hand....my illustration was to show an example of a decision that should take 1 second...rather than 30....Ive never seen you play ...but I see others I suspect are entering info into a program to help them gain an artificial advantage.

Some decisions take the full time to ponder all the options...but not everey hand.


In response to the "why have players" comment, what you do not understand is that the spreadsheet is WORTHLESS for strategy.

What you fail to understand is the part you are having the computer figure for you is the most strategic part...The part you are actually doing is simple and quickly learned.


There is no cell in which an "answer" is placed. The ONLY G-D THING IT TELLS ME is how much I have to bet if I want to 1. take the low against each player, 2. take the high, 3. take the split, 4. take the dd high, 5. take the high against opponent dd. It doesn't suggest which one I ought to do. I have to do that.


Try doing the calculations (without artificial aid) and making the decision of what you ought to do...then you are playing the game fairly , ethically and on a level playing field. Or else inform everyone you are playing for real money that you are using a "Spreadsheet" to do the math for you...


In fact, I generally do that before even looking at the sheet, I only consult the sheet for the specific NUMBER that I'm looking for. Is it now perfectly clear that the strategy/tactics are my own (borrowed, of course, from the expertise I find here)? I can't make it any clearer. I thought I had in my previous posts, but apparently I have to spell it out continuously to avoid angry responses. MY SHEET DOES NOTHING IN TERMS OF STRATEGY.



What strategy are you talking about? Whats left? The probability that you will win . lose, or draw? How hard is that?

I think its great that you spend the time to think about the process and to try to hone your skills so that you can play a good game. You have had a couple of legendary pros (not me) advise that you are on the wrong path here...

Ethically its cheating....but even worse you are cheating yourself...
Practice the game with your mind and memory as your main tools....track stats with spread sheets and study your results ....run sims to determine new ideas on the best plays and bets....but dont use the aids during play....its just not right.


I quite agree that I am lucky to have a site such as this to obseve expert play. I watched one member of the site win 25000 satellite last night and enjoyed that very much. I also watched a "celebrity" member play. I consider that a rare chance. I am attempting to learn as much as I can about strategy from this valuable resource as possible. That's why I have something to get rid of the monotonous calculations.

I guarentee you not one professional or expert is using an artificial aid to do the "monotonous calculations"...thats the key strategy of the game. You will see many celebrities play ...in fact a few have advised you here already...you just arent familar with them yet...


In response to the final quoted comment, a program involves some type of if/then/and/but/etc logical operation. All the sheet does is essentially subtract my total from the other totals and then divide by two, multiply by two, etc so that I don't have to. It is a very simple operation. No ifs, thens, or elses.

If I have X amount and you have Y amount then what amount gives me High?...Low??? You are deceiving yourself and minimalizing the value of this spread sheet program...


I'm not really talented enough to get that going, and if I was I would use Java or something. In conclusion, I must insist that you are DEAD WRONG when you say that I just enter the bet calculated (which would in fact contradict your point about slowing things down in the first place). The sheet doesn't even have a place where it TELLS me what to bet. That line does not exist. It only tells me what I must bet in order to do all of those things I mention above. I must choose which I want to do, and then modify for any unconsidered factors. There is no "answer" that it spits out. I use my brain! I just don't waste it calculating! I realize I can't take this to a live tourney, but there are none where I live so it's really quite unimportant. I'm doing this for fun and mental excercise, not to be on TV.


Dont mistake any point Im making about slowing the game down....Not the point....people who are entering cards or bets into spread sheet programs are usually identified by slow play on simple decisions....not everyone is a fast typer.....I can name at least 10 players that I suspect are cheating by using artificial aid.

I fail to see the mental exercise you are getting unless figuring how to gain unfair advantage to win money is your thing. Then you are doiung a good job.

Please, read the entire post, consider that you have misunderstood what I'm doing. I understand that you may still object, but please do so having fully informed yourself. If you'd like to see the spreadsheet, I'd be happy to attach it here. It's 28kb.


Im fully informed....I dont misunderstand anything ...I dont need to see your spread sheet.... I understand exactly what it does.

Your efforts are comendable in developing a learning tool to teach yourself how to play a better game. But you simply can not use this aid and play an honest ethical game.

I know you wont get it....Ive had similar discussions with my 20 year old son....Hes still a great kid and Im sure you are too.

Good luck with the game....try doing the calculations that lead to good decisions in your head...or if you find that too boring then maybe you need to pick another game...

 

Thank you for taking the time to respond piece by piece. I think you understand most of what I have to say, and I think your arguments are sound as well. I was angry before because your tone was quite negative, and I don't see why it was necessary.

There are still several points on which I disagree, and a point on which my mind has changed. I'll respond in bold below.



So you understand if you want to hit or stand or surrender a given set of cards...so does everyone else with half a brain or a modest understanding of Basic Stratagey. The only thinking part of this process is what you are having the computer calculate for you....

I disagree on this point. Basic strategy is of very limited use in tournament play, of course. But what to do instead is very complicated. Some of that has to do with my expertise, and some of it will be complicated even for good players. However, when I should surrender, split, etc. against the suggestion of basic strategy is a point that interests me a lot. It is far from mindless.

I get your logic....why do this task that is so easily accomplished by an Excell program...but that thinking is similar to... why teach math in school anymore...calculators and computers can do the math.

I disagree here as well. We learn the math in school so that the calculator is not a black box spitting out answers we don't understand. I am certainly capable of the math that is required. I would have to be since I wrote the spreadsheet. In using the spreadsheet, I am more analogous to the calculus student who uses a graphing calculator.

What you fail to understand is the part you are having the computer figure for you is the most strategic part...The part you are actually doing is simple and quickly learned.

This is the comment with which I agree least of any that you made. Arithmetic is not strategy. In fact, it is the antithesis. It is deterministic. Either it's right or wrong. What to do with those numbers is the strategy. It is neither simple, nor quickly learned as is clearly evidenced by this website. Proportionally few of the posts here are about how to compute values. Almost all of them focus on what is the best course of action once the values have been computed. It is clear that arithmetic is not strategy.

What strategy are you talking about? Whats left? The probability that you will win . lose, or draw? How hard is that?

I hope I've managed to indicate what I think is left. In my view, it's everything. No random person on the street will know what to do if you tell him that he can bet 5000 to take the high. Of what worth is that information? He has no basis on which to decide whether doing so would be a good idea.

When the players post teasers on this website, I can very quickly tabulate the values necessary to take the high/low/etc. However, that doesn't give me the answer to the teaser. If it did there'd be no point in posting the teaser. The fact that there are teasers posted here makes abundantly clear what is left.

Ethically its cheating....but even worse you are cheating yourself...

I have been cheating myself of the ability to do quick calculation, however that is not something that I value as highly as other aspects of the game.

I guarentee you not one professional or expert is using an artificial aid to do the "monotonous calculations"...thats the key strategy of the game. You will see many celebrities play ...in fact a few have advised you here already...you just arent familar with them yet...

It's not a key strategy to the game. That's a misuse of the word. It's a key ability. I think this is the root of our disagreement. An ability is something you need, true. But it can be quite mindless. Strategy actually involves interesting thought. Subtracting and multiplying doesn't.

I should clarify that when I said "celebrity" I meant "the owner of this website," not someone who is famous in a context outside blackjack. I do know at least a few of the celebrity players and appreciate their input. It is actually quite a surprise to me that they are so generous with it.

[I moved this quote to establish a context] Try doing the calculations (without artificial aid) and making the decision of what you ought to do...then you are playing the game fairly , ethically and on a level playing field. Or else inform everyone you are playing for real money that you are using a "Spreadsheet" to do the math for you...
...
I fail to see the mental exercise you are getting unless figuring how to gain unfair advantage to win money is your thing. Then you are doiung a good job.

This is a point on which you are changing my mind. When I wrote the spreadsheet it honestly didn't cross my mind as being an unfair advantage. It's a resource that's available to anyone. However, I would be lying to say that I don't see how it violates an understood ethic. And after thinking about it some more I realize that I would certainly take more pride in beating other players who are using calculation aid than I would from beating players who aren't using one while I am. I have no intention of taking anyone's money unfairly. In fact, I highly doubt as I'll be taking much money at all. All the same, it is my goal to be able to scale my play up to more than $1 games. In that case, I don't think I could justify using an aid. If it were all about the strategy, why would I play a higher money game? So it seems I'm in a contradiction. I think that if I want to play in more than $1 games, I will have to give up the spreadsheet. I think I will attempt to train myself off of it, using it to check my own calculations at first. Perhaps that is a use that can be agreed upon by all.

if you find that too boring then maybe you need to pick another game...

There's nothing that's going to make me think arithmetic is interesting. But there's tons of strategy in this game as well, and that's why I'm here.


I'm glad that you represented your opinions in a more even-keel way. It actually gave me something to think about. I realize that a lot of people who post on message boards are just spouting off and are probably worth yelling at. However, I am actually here to learn.

It was not my intention at the beginning that this thread become controversy. You may note in my original post about the spreadsheet I didn't intend it as something subversive. I was actually quite surprised by the reaction it generated. I understand why it makes people mad, but I'd advise that if anyone comes to the site with a similar issue you assume they have good intentions and respond as such. The "I know your type" and the "you're not using your mind" type comments turned the thing sour for me, primarily because they are both incorrect. Over the internet no one knows anyone's "type," and I was using my mind on aspects of the game that I still find to be more important. However, I understand the fairness argument as well, so I'll use the spreadsheet as a training device in $1 games to check my math and let it go as I make fewer mistakes. I will most likely be painfully slow to play with in the interrim ^_^.

 

honest opinions

Good posts WumpieJr. They sure brought out various honest opinions. I can see the different sides of the issue. I see many arguments to defend them all.

The main thing to me was that you excepted criticism so honorably. Even to the point of changing some of your opinions. Very refreshing!

We could start a whole new thread regarding cheating. I believe it would fill up quickly with opinions.

tgun