World Series of Blackjack on GSN, Finals

Lack of Dealer Blackjacks

As everyone else has said, congratulations to all of you. It was great fun for this recreational blackjack player to watch how the "pros" play. It is also comforting to read how amateurs like me at least have a fighting chance in a tournament setting.

One another note, my memory may be failing me here; however, in all of the shows, I only remember seeing one or two instances where the dealer had a blackjack. It seemed odd to me.

There were MANY situations in which the dealer was showing a face card; and if she had an ace in the hole, many of the hands would have turned out dramatically different.

Is my memory correct or not?

 

My 23k Bet in Round 20

Here is what I was thinking before round 20. As Ken was kind enought to list earlier, here are the banks and bets from round 20, in betting sequence ($K):

Micky $136/$1
Regina $118/$1
Ken $67/$1
Dave $171/$3,
Mike $102.5/$23
Jimmy $113.5/$1

I was 68.5k behind Hollywood Dave, more than table max. I had been betting conservatively and decided it was time to make a move before Dave pulled too far ahead. If Dave and I had both won our bets I would have gained 20k to cut the deficit to 48.5k, less than table max.

 

Congrat's again MIT MIKE, but?

Mike I was wondering before the finals did you and Micky work up any deals between you? I know in some tournaments some of the finalist will make deals, the only reason I ask is during hand #20, before you DD you were taking a hard look at Micky.

 

No Deals

GSN made it explicitly clear to all of the participants that any type of pre-arranged deal or collusion was against the rules. I did take a look at Mickey, but I also took a look at everyone at the table. I was buying a little time to assure myself that going all in was the right play. Looking back it was a clear cut play, but given what was at stake and the pressure, I wanted to be 100% sure that I would not second guess myself if I lost my doubledown.

 

Thank's Mike

I don't have a problem with players cutting deals in the finals, (it is done in almost every poker tournament). It nicer for you that you didn't have a deal with John (Micky), more for you.

I heard some of the GREAT stories you and John told over dinner that weekend. I would love to hear some of your stories first hand about the MIT team experences. Hope to meet you at some of the future tournaments.

 

Musings

Man, you don't know how many times this very same thought has run through my head. As Ken said, it was incredibly late when we played this final game, and unlike the other 5 players at the table -- who all had at least a few hours to rest between matches -- I had JUST finished playing the grueling Wild Card round and had barely enough time to go to the bathroom and change my clothes before the cameras started rolling again! So I was completely exhausted at this point (notice I wasn't talking nearly as much smack in the final round as I was in the other games!) but when I am tired, my brain starts going even faster (is it live, or is it ADD?) so I start playing everyone's hands & this resulted in me giving Mike the correct play.

To his credit, I am sure that is what he would have done anyway (surrendering). In fact, I am sure he knew that's what he would do when he bet that amount in the first place, hoping I'd go REAL low and only bet the minimum, handing him the game right there. Mickey, Mike and I had a conversation off-camera while waiting for the final to start about the last hand of the Wild Card round (practically identical to the last hand of the final game -- me being a close BR2 and second to act) and how Bobby should have bet more, preserving the surrender option for the low but still keeping his options open, and maybe tricking me into betting the minimum. The funny thing is, I told them then that there's no way I would've bet the minimum when holding back a chip more and betting the balance achieves the same goal as taking the low, but saves me from a surrender trap -- and lo & behold, the exact situation we had just talked about came to pass between Mike and myself. So I don't feel like I gave too much away; however, this is only what I tell myself late at night to calm myself when I realize that I shouldn't have been so forthcoming in that final moment & let Mike perhaps make a mistake & hit that 13!! Maybe he'll respond to this post and explain his intention behind asking me what I would do at that final moment....

Oh and here's an interesting tidbit -- I had agonized for several minutes over whether to hit my 17 against the dealer's 10 (all edited out of the broadcast, of course). And I had rightly concluded that it was just slightly more favorable to hope the dealer would bust than to hit the 17 and not bust myself -- but after the cameras stopped rolling & the game had ended, I couldn't resist rabbit-hunting the very next card in the shoe (to see what the dealer would have drawn had I taken her 3 and made a 20 to her 15). And guess what it was, dear readers? Yup. A black Jack. Fitting, isn't it?

-hollywood dave.

 

Round 30

I was flat out drained by the time we got to round 30, just like everyone else. Not surpising given that it was 3:30 am, and the immense pressure. But honestly, and I hope you can take some solace in this Dave, I was going to surrender that hand. It's interesting how one appears from a different perspective, in this case the television perspective. Watching myself on TV during the final round I could see how people could get the impression that Dave might have helped me make the right play. After all I took a good amount of time to make my play. I cringed when I saw the dealer had a 10 up and I had 13, but then realized all was not lost when I saw Dave's 7. Immediately I saw that I could not hit;a bust = Hollywood Dave win. I considered the stand option, but realized that was even worse than the hit option. All I would do by standing was delay the outcome of my hand, and at the same time decrease the probability of winning the hand. So that left me with the surrender option. When you saw me deliberating, I was thinking very hard, all my cogs & gears were churning, much slower than normal. I asked Dave what I should do to get a breather and relax myself. Of course I was going to take Dave's advice with a grain of salt. When Dave suggested that I surrender I got the sense he knew I was going to surrender anyway.

 

Are you serious about not minding if players have cut private deals with other players on a tournament final table? Or did you just mean for this show? If you mean in any tournament I'd ask why you'd not have a problem with it? Winning any blackjack tournament is tough enough without needing to worry that there might be players colluding. I'm not naive enough to think it doesn't go on, but I wouldn't expect anyone to not be bothered by it? I know I've run into it at least twice in my tournaments, and it's a pain in the butt because you can't really ever prove it, unless the casino really wants to investigate and normally they won't want to invest the time since they don't really care who wins anyways. That's one reason I always pay close attention when "friends" or "spouses" or "acquaintances" end up on the same tournament table- especially if I happen to know them as a counter.

 

Deals

Interesting how there's a difference in the ethics of a deal being made at a BJ tourney table, but not at a poker table. I've been at more poker final tables than BJ, and deals are made there about 90% of the time. In addition, they're usually right out in the open, with the full knowledge of the casino staff! Basically, the logic goes that if you've been able to come this far, you might as well all walk away with a guaranteed chunk of cash. I understand how this would look bad for the cameras (the stakes aren't as high) and for other gamblers who don't make it that far, but believe me, if you make it all the way to the final table out of a field of 100 or 1000 other players, the last thing you want is to walk away empty handed (or with the smallest cash prize available).

For the record, I absolutely was not part of any deal/collusion/whatever at the WSoBJ, and moreover heard no one even mention it. Besides, when there are only 25 players, it kinda removes the point. But believe me, had I made it to the final table after beating 250 players -- I probably would have been ready to wheel and deal. It just makes sense from a cash standpoint. However, if collusion is made secretly, the intent of which is to try and mess up others' games -- well, we've got a different matter there altogether.

-dave.

 

Just out of curiosity, how many decks were used in the shoe used in the tournament?


Congrats Mike! I was rooting for you the whole time so it was nice to see you score the win!! I enjoyed reading "Bringing down the House" so it was a treat to watch you (and Mickey) play. And though I wasn't cheering for you Dave, you did make watching each round you played in slightly more entertaining by your constant smack talking, although sometimes I wanted to jump in the t.v. and strangle you myself! And by the way...I tracked down a movie you were in and plan on renting it soon. My friends and I enjoy watching cheesy B-flicks and it'll be neat to see your acting abililty, which I'm sure is right up there with your abilitly to play blackjack.

 

6 or 8 -- can't remember. The shuffle always came at around hand 17.

Hey! There seems to be an awful lot of this "Though I wasn't cheering for you..." and "Though I wasn't rooting for you..." and "Though you were a total jagoff..." stuff going on around here when people write messages to me! I tellya, you just gotta get to know me. I'm really quite a loveable guy. Really! Ken wouldn't let me post here otherwise, and I tellya, he certainly had the worst of it during the final game: another conversation edited out of the broadcast was me noticing he surrendered with his right hand, and then asking him if he also masturbated with the same hand -- then as he turned red, I proceeded to detail my own personal habits in that regard, to his chagrin & horror. Anything to throw the great tourney/math master off track, and I figured my distraction would have to be as big as his reputation in order to have any chance in hell of succeeding. Did it work? Well, you tell me! But I wouldn't be surprised if KEN would've won the whole damn WSoBJ without my very... probing... questions.

BTW, I think the movie you're referring to is 'GOTH' by Brain Damage Films (you can buy it on their website, www.braindamagefilms.com ) or rent it at any Hollywood Video. Truly, a B-movie horror/slasher flick in all its resplendant glory. (and incidentally, much funnier after you've had a few drinks!)

-dave.

 

Fair Deals!

When I said I don't mind deals in the finals, I was talking about the hold table splitting or working a percentage like 90/10 with another player or players should one of us win.

Once in a winner take all tournament, I asked the table if they wanted to work a deal so everyone would win something. Two of the six said no (they were the first two out...lol) and I ended up winning the tournament. After receiving my prize money I handed out $500 each to the other three players. I found out a long time ago "A little bit of something is better then a lot of nothing"!

I have been at tournaments where they didn't even play the finals, everyone just split the money. Even at the Hilton's Million Dollar tournament they don't mind (or have control) over players splitting the money, but the Hilton will have no part of it. The Hilton pays the players in the order they finish and should the winner, NOT split with others he/she may have had a deal the Hilton is not responsible. Some month’s back this discussing came up here on Kens site about deals and splitting in the Hilton finals.

I don't know about the most of you, but if I am lucky enough to make the finals at the Hilton, I am DAMM sure going to ask about cutting some type of deal, like the 2nd - 7th gets $50,000 ($10,000 more then 2nd would normally receive) and the winner gets the rest. This way everybody walks away a big winner and the 1st place still makes $798,000 (which I could squeak by on...lol). If you feel this is not fair I can only hope your not in the finals with me...lol!

Now if they’re a rule that splitting is not allowed, then yes you shouldn't do it, but just look at the WSOB finals. Had the players been allowed to make a six way split they could of ALL walked away with over $25,000 each! Hell the only way to get more was to win, this way 2nd - 6th place would have all made more money then they did.

As far as two or more players teaming up trying to mess up the table, bring them on. I love playing against players like that, one is giving him/herself up for the team and that takes that player out of the picture. I play my game (low bets) so they don't hurt me. If they can change the cards (like some believe) why are they trying to mess others up? Why not just bet big themselves if they know what the cards are going to be?

I had a talk with Ken yesterday about this. I find the bigest advantage for these players is they get under the other players skin (mind games, ask Hollywood about this). If I saw that mind games worked I would be pulling my ear, rubbing my nose and giving other signals (to no one) just to make you think we were a team. It is hard enough to win without worrying that everyone else is out to cheat you. Play your game, pay attention to what your doing and stop worring about everyone else. If they have you worried your already in trouble.

 

Although I don't agree with you on sharing (as I believe it ruins the integrity of the game) or not playing a final round and just splitting the money differently, thanks for giving your thoughts on it. When I play in tournaments I don't spend too much time worrying about teamplay, but when a duck's a duck...

I also tend to play more conservatively bet wise in most tournaments so that I'm around on the final set of hands where nearly every tournament for blackjack I've seen is decided. I won't let another play rabbitt ahead of me too much, but I also have never let myself be knocked out before the countdown. I'm sure it might happen someday...

Most tournaments I've played in mention the competition is for individuals, but I'd have to try and find old rules sheets to see if they specifically mention not sharing/teamplay. Has anyone else actually seen rules that out & out tell players it's against the rules of that tournament??

 

Mind games 2

I don't have any problem with subtle mind games being played, like fiddling with chips, or taking unusually long time to bet, or acting one way while being prepared to proceed another. I do have a problem with vulgar verbal mind games when I'm playing- and don't get me wrong, I'm no prude in my personal life. The thing is, in the tournaments I've played in you're not even supposed to be talking to other players very much, let alone trying to disturb them with off color remarks and the like. I guess if it's tolerated it's c'est la vie, and I could zing with the best of them, but I don't think it's appropriate. The WSOBJ coverage though did seem different from many of the tournaments I've been in with a much looser atmosphere (probably the for t.v. element?) so maybe that explains some of it. I wouldn't recommend trying some of those verbal things at tournaments in Atlantic City though...

 

Sounds like I know exactly how to rattle your cage. I look forward to the next time we're heads up at a final table, my friend.

 

Be nice Hollywood!

Hollywood be nice, if that is his feelings so be. Although playing with your chips is against the rules in most tournaments. I am guessing by your comments that you play mostly in AC. Most players I know that play up there tell me the tournaments suck when and if they have any (this is their wording) coming from players in New York and Maryland area who tell me they would much rather come to Vegas for tournaments.

I don't know if you have ever played in a Vegas tournament or not, if not you should really try one. The players come in from all over and most of us know one another. The New Frontier is probally the best tournament in the country, and usually follows the Stardust (not in May though), along with either the Riviera or Imperial Palace tournaments. If you can plan a trip to Vegas in August you have the chance to play in three to four tournaments within 6-7 days.

 

I've played in numerous tournaments in Atlantic City, and Canada,and good old Las Vegas, along with several other places in the United States. My friends long ago nicknamed me "iceman" because I don't let what's going on at the tables bother me. I just deal with it. No one's been able to get to me in any tournament to date, but since I run my website over at DDE, I offer commentary on what could possibly bother me or other players- if we let it. Frankly if someone made an obscene remark to me during a tournament round when talking to other players wasn't allowed, I'd suggest a different recourse than in a tournament where it was. Gotta go with the rules of each individual one after all. My favorite blackjack tournament experience to date was at the STARDUST World Series of Blackjack back in 2001, even though I got clipped in the second round on the last hand by a move I couldn't lock out!!

TX, when I say fiddling with chips, remember that most tournaments require you to keep your stacks differentiated...however...you have the time before you put your chips into the stacks to "work with". You can't really do much in most good tournaments with chips prior to bet because usually what you put into your hand must be put into the betting circle to avoid "splashing". You can however resort to the the "long stare" or "uncomfortable humming" or other gimmicks if you wanted to in order to see if you could knock another player off their game. Or just try laughing for no reason during a pretty normal hand in a tournament and see what that does Or hit your 20 with your minimal bet out to "mess with" the table---especially if you're counting and in an ace rich environment, or have spotted a dealer tell. (that's why I was wondering if Ken picked up something from Tiki on his hit!)

Hollywood Dave, you seem like a nice enough guy and so please don't take this wrong, but there are several of my DoubleDowners who eagerly look forward to you being on a tournament final table with them after watching the shows Myself definitely included, although I may not be able to play in many tournaments this year due to my health issues and my wife's recent good news

When I mentioned not trying verbal remarks in A.C. tournaments I was specifically thinking of the example you gave of "...another conversation edited out of the broadcast was me noticing he surrendered with his right hand, and then asking him if he also masturbated with the same hand -- then as he turned red, I proceeded to detail my own personal habits in that regard, to his chagrin & horror...." I have seen firsthand players given one warning in A.C. tournaments that a second inappropriate comment or action would have them out of the tournament immediately. That's why I thought I'd mention it. Lots of casino bj tournament players don't want to hear that kinda stuff on their game tables and will seek a player's removal if they bother them.